Selection of the JWs in 1918/1919 - how might a JW attempt to show from the Bible

by insearchoftruth 55 Replies latest jw friends

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  insearchoftruth

  I had asked my wife, who is in the study phase with a JW sister about the selection of the JWs by JC in 1918/1919 time frame and she had actually never heard of that.

  The husband of this woman she is studying with has been chomping at the bit to talk to me...well my wife said she will ask him to come show me, using only the bible, how this selection was made...of course she did not clear this request with the dubman before telling me she would do this.

  I am guessing he will be there when I get home from work tomorrow, she is also torturing our son with a bs now (her son from a previous marriage).

  What sort of reach do you think he will try to make to show this...I am guessing he will try to show 1914 from the Daniel/Revelation stuff, if he does this I am going to ask him to show 607BCE from a non JW source....since I believe it is 586/587 BCE as a starting date......I hope to keep him on the 1918/1919 topic, and have some examples of their beliefs from that era to talk about as well
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  drew sagan

  It is very convoluted stuff, but a great topic to drill JWs on. Here is the likely path he will take.
  
  1. Prove 1914 using Daniel and Revelation (plus either Mark or Matthew, can't remember which).
  
  Part two is the really absurd part:
  
  2. They teach (in their 'Revelation' book) that the time between Jesus baptism and death corresponds to the time between 1914 and 1918. Starting with 1914, you take the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry and add that and get sometime early in 1918.
  
  So, not only does 1914 have to be proven (with all of its inconsistencies and code seeking absurdity) you then throw in the 1918 thing that is so apparently a stretch that I think even a JW who has to defend it will be somewhat embarrassed.
  
  Don't let them jump the topic and start telling you about how "clean" they were back then, or that they were the only people that had the truth. Focus on dates! They most likely will say stuff like "we were the only ones right about the trinity, immortal soul, ect" and that is why God chose us.
  1914/1918/1919 does everything for the Watchtower, but what exactly would an all powerful god need such confusing dates for?
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  PrimateDave

  It's too bad most JWs don't have any idea about the strange teachings of the Watchtower back then (1918). If you were to take that old literature and point out the problems and discrepancies contained within it, they would likely react like you had just shown them apostate material. Yet, this same literature was printed by the very same people who were supposedly selected by Jesus!

  Since no dates as we know them are to be found in the Bible, the only reliable and universally agreed upon date between JWs and the secular world is the conquest of Babylon in 539 BCE. Then you have to use the Watchtower CD to list the Babylonian kings and the duration of their reigns to show that it was not possible for Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem in 607 BCE. The so-called Gentile times prophecy based on Nebuchadnezzar's dream is a pretty flimsy construct. Very few Witnesses are able to explain it even.
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  drew sagan

  An eaiser way to discredit the JWs can come from using their "Isaiah" book. In order to count back from 537 to 607 the prophecy MUST be interpreted as being exactly 70 years.

  The Watchtowers own Isaiah book states that for another Bible prophecy against the city of Tyre, the number of years is not to be taken literally. So in one case the exact time frame is not important, but in another case is it a dire necessity. A very clear case of the WTS using whatever is necessary to prove what they wish.
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  drew sagan

  I found the exact quote:

  ***ip-1chap.19p.253JehovahProfanesthePrideofTyre***
  
  "She Must Return to Her Hire"
  21 Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will "be forgotten." True to the prophecy, for the duration of "one king"—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?

  So in this case the WTS has no problem accepting that the 70 years is not literal, mainly because the Watchtower has nothing important resting on this prophecy. But when another prophecy involved in their own "divine selection" is involved you are the spawn of the devil if you suggest that anything but a literal 70 years is necessary.
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  Will Power

  http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/bible-code.html

  Why not dazzle him with your own secret codes?

  wp
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  donny

  "Evidently" and "logically" are two words the Society uses when it knows the point it is trying to make is on very shaky grounds. I guess they learned form their past to avoid the phrases like "indisputable fact" and the like.

  I think it is very important to get the Witness to verify this date and the supposed appointment by Jesus Christ. This was the issue that really opened the blinders on my eyes. Once that appointment is proven false, they have nothing to stand on.

  Donny
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  insearchoftruth

  Drew Sagan posted:

  Don't let them jump the topic and start telling you about how "clean" they were back then, or that they were the only people that had the truth. Focus on dates! They most likely will say stuff like "we were the only ones right about the trinity, immortal soul, ect" and that is why God chose us.
  1914/1918/1919 does everything for the Watchtower, but what exactly would an all powerful god need such confusing dates for?

  When sticking to dates, if he attempts to go on with the presentation on how they came to 1914, would this be the time to mention 586/587, or wait a week and 'do some research?'

  I am really hoping my wife is present when we talk about this, I want it to be a jumping off point to a 'Captives of a Concept' type discussion....

  Would this also be a time to mention that there are still Bible Students today who were believing the same exact things as the folks who are now JWs.....and these folks in many cases are much more rigidly in line with what was 'inspected' in 1918/1919.

  PrimateDave posted:

  Since no dates as we know them are to be found in the Bible, the only reliable and universally agreed upon date between JWs and the secular world is the conquest of Babylon in 539 BCE. Then you have to use the Watchtower CD to list the Babylonian kings and the duration of their reigns to show that it was not possible for Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem in 607 BCE. The so-called Gentile times prophecy based on Nebuchadnezzar's dream is a pretty flimsy construct. Very few Witnesses are able to explain it even.

  Isn't this the KISS approach that I believe it was AlleyMom had posted.....

  Is the Isiah book on the WT CD??
• 

  diamondiiz

  Insearchoftruth:

  Keep the 1874 date of Christ's return in mind that they taught this crap until 1930s (some 50 years!) so how does 1918/1919 fit into that picture???? Also 607 wasn't invented until 1945 if I remember correctly but 606BC was taught meantime as they learned to count years properly. :) Good luck
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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Proving the WTS appointment in 1919 from the Bible requires some incredibly convoluted scriptural gymnastics. In addition to the points noted above, Malachi 3:1-5 comes into play. In this cryptic passage, God promises to send "his messenger" to cleanse his temple with the lye of a refiner. The WT interprets thiese verses as having two fulfillments (of course).

  First (if I recall correctly), this was fulfilled when Jesus came down to earth. He judged the nation of Israel as being unclean and started his own religion--Christianity. The second fulfillment was in 1918-19, when Jesus came back, judged all the religions claiming to be Christian, and selected the WTS as his organization.

  So this is how they get the parallel between Jesus' earthly ministry and his 1918-19 judgment. In the first fulfillment, it took Jesus 3.5 years from when he was anointed until he established the new Christian congregation (Pentecost 33 A.D., I think). Thus, as a holdover from Russell's parallel dispensations, the WTS assumed that Jesus would take 3.5 years from being installed as king until he started judging the other religions and picking the one he liked.

  Note that I'm doing all of this from memory, so I may have gotten some details wrong. If so, feel free to point them out. But I think my comments above accurately reflect current WT teaching on the matter--at least at a high level.

  Also, you asked about whether it would be wise to mention that modern Bible Student groups adhere more closely to what the WTS taught in 1918-19. I don't think it would add much to the conversation to bring this up. The JW response is that the light gets brighter and those Bible Students are stuck in the past. It would be a distraction and would likely lead off on a tangent.