Help needed - How to debate a knowledgeable jw to help my jw girlfriend

by bohm 30 Replies latest members private

• 

  Black Sheep

  Hi Bohm, I'm back again.

  You should read some of the topics that Reniaa has started and posted on, as s/he uses JW tactics constantly. This will give you some idea of what to expect when you encounter an Elder.

  Try to put off your meeting as long as possible so that you can study Reniaa and her tactics. As you read the threads, notice how easily many of the posters are distracted from their original question/statement. You must not fall for this. It is not easy. Many of the posters that she derails think they are old hands at this game. You are just a newbie.

  Take care.

  Chris

  P.S. Thanks Reniaa/Dad
• 

  Black Sheep

  I am just tossing around an idea here.
  
  You might be able to avoid the meeting with the Elder if you make it clear before the meetup that you want an answer to a specific question, and expect an answer to that question, at that meetup.
  
  "Can you please give me a list of Babylonian kings from Nebuchadnezzar to Nabonidus, showing what years they reigned in and how long each king reigned for?"
  
  From my notes:
  
  The WT claims that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E. and uses Dan 4:23-25, Rev 12:6, 14, Num 14:34, and Ezek 4:6 to come up with 1914 C.E., which is 2,520 years later, as the year that Jesus began his reign in heaven. If the WTS’s claim that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E. is correct, then why is it that every reference source, including the Encyclopedia Britannica, Microsoft Encarta, The World Book Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Americana, Compton’s Encyclopedia, Acedemic American Encyclopedia, Cambridge Ancient History – Vol. III, The Oxford Dictionary of World History, etc, etc, all state that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 BC? If the WTS is correct that Christ’s reign in heaven started 2,520 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, shouldn’t this event have occurred in 1935 instead of 1914? Should we view the overwhelming opinion of essentially every historian who is an expert on ancient history, or the WTS, as unreliable?
  
  I know for a fact, that the current Watchtower Library CD contains all of the information neccessary to produce a list of kings from Nebuchadnezzar to Nabonidus, including the lengths of their reigns. There is no way that the lengths of the reigns published in the Watchtower's own literature can be added together to fit the Watchtower's doctrine, that Nebuchadnezzar began his reign in 625BC.
  
  You can not become, or remain, a Jehovah's Witness in good standing if you do not give lip service to believing that Nebuchadnezzar's reign began in 625BC. Period. And it is false. If anyone disagrees with that statement.............Prove me wrong!
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II
  
  Cheers
  
  Chris
• 

  Black Sheep

  P.S.

  All of the advice I give is lessons from my mistakes, not my successes.
• 

  DaCheech

  bohm, I leave this in your hands:

  tell reniaa to go fly a kite, she thinks she's so needed
• 

  PrimateDave

  Unless you are intimately familiar with Witness doctrine, I would personally stay clear of that. It is full of circular reasonings and other logical fallacies. On the other hand, someone who is good at picking out and picking apart logical fallacies could have fun taking apart assertions made by Witnesses and attacking the premises they are built upon.

  Most people I know of who are Witnesses come from cultures which have historically respected the divine origins of the Bible based on tradition. Take away the Bible, and many will still believe in a god. Tell your GF you have no problem with that. You only have a problem with people and organizations who force others to do what they say because they claim to know the mind of god. Fundamentalists claim the Bible is the perfect Word of God. Really it is just a product of human culture and this can easily be proven. Just stick to the facts.
• 

  bohm

  Thanks for the many kind suggestions!

  purplesofa: Im not 100% sure what you mean. ofcourse she hope that what she has believed in all her life, which give her hope to be with her loved ones forever, is true. Frankly, i would wish that was true as well, but i just dont see any evidence for and a lot against. Right now she is torn in a major way. as i wrote she is babtized and was a regular puplisher - the past 6 months she has been in a kingdom hall a very few number of times, and allways when extended family was over so it would be rude not to go (i have asked her to go a number of times because it would smooth things out with her mum and dad a number of times but she has said no). Right now she avoids all things jw related and i feel very sorry to see her this torn. Thats my number one reason for doing this. If this man call and tell her not to associate with me... i doubt he would get a positive reaction out of that.

  Black sheep: Thanks for all the input, i have enjoyed reading your posts so im glad for your response. if there is anything i have learned from my past months here its that im a noob. i wont change any of his beliefs, not even make a tiny dent in any of it, even if im right and he is wrong. In terms of the argumetns being difficul
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  From your description of her current situation, it sounds like you are wanting her to see that an experienced JW has no better answers to your questions than she does. If you pursue that avenue, then you just ask the elder the same questions or present the same problems with JW doctrine that you have been presenting to her. Let her see that the elder cannot weazle out of them either.

  So, you would already know what avenue you used with her. Do more of the same.

  He might do a better job at answering than her, but his answers will still have the same holes in them.
• 

  Lady Liberty

  Dear Bohm,

  First, welcome to the forum!

  Second, in order for you to be able to get through to your girlfriend, you must show her that the very foundation she has based her faith on is not one based on truth.

  Most likely she considers all her beliefs to be founded upon truth, and if that is the case she will probably be very confident in her ability to disprove anything you may have to say or show her.

  I considered myself VERY knowledgeable in the JW faith. Yet my world was shattered when I could not find proof of a date that was taught at almost every meeting, because I knew that the date was so important that if there was no proof for this date, then 99% of all other JW teachings would crumble because they all are intertwined with this date.

  Then, when I had my husband try and help me find proof for this date without using any of the organizations literature, he could not either! He was blown away. It wasn't long and he too realized we had been lied to and that the JWs do NOT have the truth, for truth is 100% pure and truthful.

  I don't know if you know very much about the JW doctorine regarding 1914. So here is a brief overview.

  1. JWs are taught to believe that they were identified and accepted as the only true religion by Christ Jesus in 1914-1919.

  2. They get to 1914 by using calculations that are taken from several scriptures that have nothing to do with one another to form a mathmatical calculation. This is a CRITICAL date.

  3. The mathmatical calculation begins by using a FALSE DATE of 607 bce for the destruction of Jerusalem. (The real date proven by archeology is 586/587. See the British Museum online. There is a 20 year discrepancy.) Interesting note: The organization continually will use the British Museum to back up other dates, but it does NOT support them regarding this timeline.

  You may or may not realize how being shown that these dates that are being taught as truths are mere lies will shock most JWs, as most have no clue the dates are so off. You may say. "But what does it matter?" Well, if you pride yourself in believing that you have "the truth", and teach it as such to others, you will most likely have a real struggle with your conscience if things don't add up!

  The organization claims to be appointed by God, yet they are SELF appointed. Because most JWs believe they are being taught by God and the organization is being run by God, they accept blindly all teachings...teachings that at times have proven to be the death sentence for some. For example the teaching that they cannot accept Blood. My Grandfather is a perfect example of someone who followed the "current teaching" of the blood doctorine, and lost his life because of it!!!!! Then shortely after he died they CHANGED their teaching and will now accept Blood Fractions. Something that could have saved his life!

  Sure most JWs are good people who try to live clean lives. Yet to claim to be the ONLY TRUE religion on earth acceptable to God and his Son, that is a pretty tall order to live up to. I invite you to read our story, as it may help you get your girlfriend to realize she is being lied to. If you look up my name, Lady Liberty, it is the very first post I ever did. Entitled Its High Time I Introduce Myself. ( I have to get out of Firefox to post it...sorry.)

  *****I also invite Rennia who is a active JW on this forum to find proof for 607 WITHOUT using any JW literature. Its IMPOSSIBLE!! And I also invite her to explain to me how stand regarding Blood are claimed to be from God, thousands die because of their stand to not have ANY blood, and then the teaching changes out of the blue, and suddenly Blood Fractions are ok?? You cannot have Blood Fractions unless someone donates the Blood, it is stored, and then it is seperated into fractions! Did God misdirect them all along??? Or was the teaching truely not from God as they claimed from the begining??? Keep in mind the Bible says God does not change!!!!!*******

  Sorry..... but JWs like Rennia have no clue what they are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  Anyhow..I hope this helps you, and regardless if you believe the Bible or not, your girlfriend is in a VERY DANGEROUS cult, and you can use the Bible which is her guide, to get her out....good luck!

  Sincerely,

  Lady Liberty
• 

  moshe

  It is hard for a JW to convert anyone who doesn't accept that the Bible is inspired, consequently they probably won't accept any arguments from an atheist, either. Our Rabbi made it plain in her sermon last week that they don't presume to tell Jews that prayer actually works. Religion is always one sided- what you do for G-d. If it was the other way around then it would be obvious who had the true religion, wouldn't it? JW's are just another branch of Bible believers who have tried to make sense of a holy book that has inspired thousands of different sects and denominations. Human experience shows that JW's are losers, who for the most part who have mistaken the "kick me" sign on their arse for religious persecution.

  

  When JW's begin to support public charities and spend some of their billion dollar wealth on the poor and needy, then they will begin to get some respect. For example, 99.9% of the world are not JW's and that alone should tell a person something about the veracity of the JW religion. Of course, JW's who hang out with only JW's will likely never see the mistakes they are making or understand the reasons why they are secretly unhappy. Cognitive dissonance covers up a multitude of WT errors and the human memory will rewrite itself over time to forget the mistakes of the past. 1975?- never said that. Organ transplant ban?- don't remember that. Encouraging kids to drop out of school to pioneer before 1975? Never happened. Blood guilt for the innocent deaths of kids due to the blood tranfusion ban? Well, we don't think about the possibilty we could have been wrong and that G-d has condemned JW's over the loss of thousands of lives. Even the Jewish run hospitals see no religious conflict in accepting blood transfusions and their elevators probably stop on every floor on the Sabbath as pushing a button would be, "work", and forbidden for Orthodox visitors on the Sabbath.

  Good luck in helping your girfriend- getting her disfellowshipped/disassociated would be of greater help, I believe. If you have been intimate together, then by all means, mention that when the elder visits- the truth will set you free, as they say.
• 

  TD

  I actually agree with some of what Reniaa said above. I've had quite a number of conversations with accomplished JW apologists. Some were cordial and some were not so cordial.

  Although there are aspects of the JW faith that are absolutely indefensible, many things about the religion can be defended better than you would otherwise believe just from reading here on this website.

  For example, I would avoid attacking the NWT unless you are extremely accomplished in the source languages. Much (But not all) of the criticism directed at the NWT on the internet is shallow, stupid and promoted by people with less than a semester of biblical Greek if they know any at all. In most instances where a question of translation arises, an accomplished JW apologist can locate a mainstream source that agrees with the NWT. I've watched this play out on B-Greek for years.

  Here are a couple of problem areas:

  The teaching on blood is absolutely indefensible. It was based upon a simple misconception about what blood actually did in the body and once that misconception was abandoned, the teaching was reduced to pure speculation. I've discussed this with individuals who in my opinion were the best that the JW organization had to offer and their defenses were riddled with inconsistency and outright deviations from the JW organization's official position.

  The JW's routinely distort their early history and present an illusory picture of harmony between current and past beliefs. One main area is the fact that none of the original expectations for 1914 came to fruition. In the years that followed 1914, these expectations of physical events were spiritualized into heavenly, invisible events (e.g. Jesus starting to reign invisibly in 1914)

  For example, Russell did not teach that Jesus would begin ruling invisibly in heaven in 1914. He taught that Jesus had been crowned as king of the kingdom in 1878 and that the thousand year reign of Christ would commence visibly on earth in 1914. --Big difference. The whole idea that God's kingdom even needed to be 'establislhed' in heaven at all was entirely alien to Russell.

  The reality is that the one single eschatological element from the entire Russell era that JW's today still accept as valid (The expiration of the Gentile Times in 1914) actually originated with the Second Adventist, Nelson Barbour and not Russell at all. Watchtower literature and even Bethel speakers at JW conventions consistenly distort what the Bible Student's original expectations had been and pretend that what JW's believe now is what had been taught all along. This is easily documentable.