Jehovah didn't seem to be offring many of these kids peace of mind.
The Bible
by desib77 55 Replies latest jw friends
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Spike Tassel
You have asked about "Why Does God Allow Suffering?" You can PM if you're comfortable with that, desib77.
If you are open to what JWs teach, you may find it helpful to click on one of the www.watchtower.org/ links I've pasted here.
For instance, the book What Does The Bible Really Teach? is found online at http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm. There you'll see the Table of Contents. Among the topics in the table of contents is the question "Why Does God Allow Suffering?", the title for chapter 11, which is found at http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_11.htm.
And, you may want to check out one or more of the other links below, as well.
Jehovah's Witnesses: Watchtower Society Official Web Site
Official web site of Watchtower Society, the legal organization in use by Jehovah's Witnesses. Authoritative source about beliefs, teachings, activities.
www.watchtower.org/ - Cached - SimilarPublications Links to All Bible Books Languages The Bible's Viewpoint Beliefs Questions Often Asked by ... Medical Future More results from watchtower.org ยป -
ablebodiedman
Love is a wonderful thing and I am very thankful that I have been made with the capability to love but I don't believe that it was a choice between creation that can love and creation that obeys God. You have to think that this is the almighty God. Why a choice? Why not humans that can love and yet worship him the way he so obviously wants to be worshipped?
Love is a choice.
If you simply love God becasue he created you in such a way that you are compelled to love him then is that really love?
Of course not!
Satan's argument is that people will not choose to love him and will instead make up their own rules.
The only righteous and loving option that God has remaining is to continue to allow people to choose.
The problem is that if people are allowed to make up their own rules then suffering becomes a consequence of those rules.
The entire bible is full of examples of this.
The value of the decisions that people make can be measured by simply looking around at the condition of our present world.
The present world we live in is an example of suffering as a consequence of decisions (rules) that men have made.
Should God be held accountable for the suffering when it is a result of refusing to obey him?
Or should God allow it to continue just to prove that there really will be people capable of exhibiting love even under these awfull conditions.
The bible shows that a time will come when God plans to step in and remove the people who disobey him so that the people who are capable of exhibiting love can enjoy the full benefit.
They won't have to suffer the consequences of decisions made by people who think they can make up their own rules.
In order to be counted in amoungst those people it is very important that Jesus Christs commandments are followed.
It is also very important to carefully examine Jesus Christ's warnings also.
False prophets really will come saying; "The due time is here".
The false prophets will also have great success, even misleading the chosen ones.
That is why it is very important to follow Jesus Christ's commandments exactly!
Can you think of any false prophets who said the; "the due time is here" and it did not come true?
Be very, very, very carefull.
abe
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ablebodiedman
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Can you think of any self important organizations who have made up their own rules (counsels/laws)?
I invite people to carefully examine Jesus Christs commandment (law) regarding baptism.
Anyone who has the presumption to change this baptismal law before the conclusion of this system of things should be considered as without law.
---- lawless!
"that's right they make up their own counsels but they have left the WORD."
Imagine what might happen if an organization decided to exclude the Holy Spirit from Jesus Christ's baptismal law.
Would the Holy Spirit be grieved?
The only unforgivable sin!
The transgression (sin) that is guaranteed to cause desolation!
This constant feature of worship would become invalid.
It would be removed.see Daniel Chapter 8 and 11.
abe
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AllTimeJeff
Abe
Thats some serious JW dogma you are offering. It is something that most of us are familiar with. Speaking for myself, having pioneered for over 12 years, the standard company line was that suffering came about from being out of line with God's standards, that the whole earth disobeyed god.
So to talk to us like we are hearing this for the first time, when in fact, there are good reasons to reject the premise, is somewhat amusing. Why would you post this as if we don't know what JW's teach on the subject? You haven't offered anything new here.
Let me take a couple of your statements
Should God be held accountable for the suffering when it is a result of refusing to obey him?
Not just accountable, but culpable. JW's are asked to believe that God is a god of love, that he cares for all, and yet, he is willing to use us as his lab rat examples to prove what an awesome god he is? (see: The Book of Job)
I demand more of my deities who ask me to worship her, specifically, that they show up. God hasn't been seen according to the bible in 2000 years, the longest layoff in bible history.
Or should God allow it to continue just to prove that there really will be people capable of exhibiting love even under these awfull conditions.
A common falicy with the above argument (not unique to JW's of course) is that God is allowing time to pass. Time is a convenient substitute for the real issue: total number/amount of people affected by the passage of time "needed" for "God" to prove his point.
Does anyone want to take a small guess at how many billions upon billions of people have suffered under awful conditions, over milleniums of time, so that god will have adequate testimony to whatever point he is making? To whom is he making this argument by the way, himself? Satan? Satan lost a bet in the book of Job, and if you want to go further, he lost in tempting Jesus. Ok, enough! REAL PEOPLE SUFFER. The point if proven, it isn't necesarry anymore, enough time has passed. God needs to show himself.
Or is the more logical explanation that the god of the bible doesn't exist?
I would also be remiss to point out that while I am not a theist, there are many Christians who are not comfortable with this argument, to their credit. This is not a universally accepted point of view, and hardly the most heartening.
Can you think of any false prophets who said the; "the due time is here" and it did not come true?
Be very, very, very carefull.
Yes, I can. Jehovah's Witnesses have proposed a plethora of dates. The link below shows the dates next to the Watchtower article reference. I would invite any lurkers here to see for themselves what a false prophet looks and sounds like. (if you want highlighted examples, the WT had given an end date of 1799, 1846, 1872, 1873, 1874..... 1914, 1925, 1975... you can look it up!)
A Comprehensive List of False Dates Set By the Watchtower
Your warning is very well taken. Be careful. And if you find yourself associated with a group that claims to prophesy, and gets it wrong that many times, you might want to consder moving on....
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AllTimeJeff
I think I owe Abe an apology.
I will leave my post just in case JW apologists want to come here and read it, but Abe isn't an apologist for JW's.... Just his own view of the bible.
So for that Abe, I hope you will accept my apologies.
I do disagree with your line of reasoning on suffering though, for the reasonings I have enumerated.
Your way of biblical opinion sounded a bit JW to me, but thats my fault.
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ablebodiedman
AllTimeJeff,
Your point of view and reasoning is not unique.
You have obviously recognised that an enormous amount of suffering has and is continuing to happen and that God is still a no show.
There are however, many people who still think the suffering can be resolved without any interference from God.
What if God was to show up now?
These people would then say that they could have resolved all the suffering themselves.
The conditions in the world will have to reach a point where these people realize that they really don't know what to do in order to resolve the problems which cause suffering.
Yes, It will get much worse as a consequence of their efforts!
When people and nations around the world start coming to the conclusion that they really don't know what to do , that is when Jesus Christ will show.
I am not making this up.
It is what the bible says:
Luke 21:25-28 --- Amplified Bible
25 And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth [there will be] distress (trouble and anguish) of nations in bewildermentand perplexity without resources, left wanting, embarrassed, in doubt, not knowing which way to turn] at the roaring (the echo) of the tossing of the sea,
26 Men swooning away or expiring with fear and dread and apprehension and expectation of the things that are coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken and [c] caused to totter.
27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with great (transcendent and overwhelming) power and [all His kingly] glory (majesty and splendor).
When the people who presently think they know what to do begin to admit that they really don't know what to do, that is the time that Jesus Christ will show.
Please spend some time imagining the conditions which will occur in order for these presumptious people to confess that they really do not know what to do!
What platform will they then be using to obtain a democratic vote?
Conditions will reach the point where even political candidates will have to say: "I don't know what to do".
Imagine that!
abe
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AllTimeJeff
Abe,
This entire reasoning is unnecessary. We are being asked to believe that it somehow (unexplained) serves a higher purpose for man to meander around, when god has both the means and motive to do away with suffering.
Allow me to use an example that has always stuck with me: Bono, the lead singer of U2, was asked if he was aware that all the politicians and rich business people he was soliciting money from merely wanted a photo op with him as a famous person to help their own agendas, and if that bothered him. I quote as best I can, when he replied 'I don't think the suffering people in Africa really care about the motives of those that donate...'
The point being, whatever reasons a person has to help or not, it is the suffering people that actually need the attention. To the point about whatever the hell "god" is waiting for, my response is, it doesn't really matter to me. Help the people that are suffering. I don't really care about "gods" agenda, he clearly doesn't seem to care about anyone else's.
I am of course, referring to the traditional "bible god" that you seem to cling to Abe. I find your explanation in defense of god leaves me cold. Call it what you will, but please don't frame it as loving.
If as you maintain, there is an agenda with god, then that makes me even less inclined to worship this invisible deity. Why? Don't create me in your image god, then punish me for what my ancestors (Adam and Eve) did 6,000 years ago, supposedly reveal yourself in 66 spliced together books called the bible, have this revealed revelation be closed up well over 1500 years ago, have it mistranslated and misapplied by men, while you silently sit back and watch it all, and then possibly hope that I think you are the best option for mankind???!!! Yeah. Right.
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ablebodiedman
At the present time there are many organizations and individuals both political and secular who think they know what to do in order to make the world a better place.
Isn't that why political candidates get a vote?
Because individuals think their plan will actually work!
Is that not why the USA and many other countries have gone to war?
They all think they will make the world a better place and end suffering.
As long as even one man or woman exists on the planet who imagines that they can actually do this without God's help then they should be allowed.
It is only when not even one individual comes forward to suggest this that I expect God to return.
When not even one individual steps forward to suggest this ................. that is when Jesus Christ will return!
The world will continue to suffer the result of their decisions (and votes) until the suffering reaches the point where no one is willing to step forward.
Please try and imagine a sutuation where all the political candidates, university professors, scientists and self important people actually make this admission and confess that they don't know what to do.
THAT .............. is when Jesus Christ will return.
abe
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AllTimeJeff
Please try and imagine a sutuation where all the political candidates, university professors, scientists and self important people actually make this admission and confess that they don't know what to do.
THAT .............. is when Jesus Christ will return.
I totally disagree, but I know many people in this country believe that. I am not one of them.
I think that no claim has been made by man that says "we will end suffering". I think it is the goal of enlightened nations to work to accomplish this over time.
I don't put the failure by man to do so as a good reason to throw away my mind and critical thinking abilities and say that Jesus is the answer. He died over 2000 years ago, and has not been seen since.
I think the better alternative we have at alleviating suffering is to work with those who are alive. They may be incompetent, but they do talk back when you talk to them.