What really matters to the elders- Podcast 9 Judicial Hearing

by Hobo Ken 70 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  iknowall558

  Besty - - - As and when (big if) he wakes up I will break his nose and then we can be friends again :-)

  Sorry, I dont really know your story, but how have you coped knowing it was your brother who instigated proceedings against you. What kind of feelings do you have toward him? Your situtation sounds similar to Matt with his brother. Matt was kind and gracious' in the beginning regarding how he felt about Paul and even made a point of saying this to him and Ronnie in the second part of the JC. But now he says he no longer feels sympathy or pity for him because of how easily he could testify against him and put him through what he did. I don't know if he's hurt or angry, (probably both), but unlike you, he doesn't see himself ever being friends with him, even if a miracle did happen and he came out.

  Just curious !
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  iknowall558
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  etna

  Thanks for posting the hearing and I'm looking forward to the rest of the audio. We get so dissappointed by the way things are handled and the hypocrisy. Thanks for keeping us to date, it helps with everything we go through.
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  besty

  ok sorry missed this 1st time round

  our story is here

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/132648/1/Besty-Sweet-Pea-3d-Its-A-Family-Affair

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/139249/1/Weve-been-invited-to-a-JC

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/144705/1/Our-JC

  To answer your question I would be friends with anyone that leaves the JW's and acknowledges they have been in a mind control cult. They are a victim same as I was - so if my brother exits the group all bets are off. I have already forgiven him unconditionally in any case. Why wouldn't I?

  The more tricky bit is in the nature of my relationship with my brother outside of all that. There is just two of us - he is 3 years older and always played the big brother role with great attention to detail :-)

  If we hadn't been brothers I don't think our respective personalities would have led to us being close friends. Just very different. Did I mention he is CoBOE and I'm an apostate - apart from that we get on fine :-)

  I think he shares some of the characteristics of Teddy J - he likes things neat, labels to be applied and everything to be in order. Thinking in shades of grey does not come naturally to him. He is not subtle. So when I told him what I thought was wrong - child abuse policies, 607, blood, end of the worldism - there could only be one outcome. For him to be right I had to be wrong. If I was wrong I had to be DF'd. He had already told me about 6 weeks prior to me even being aware of a JC being formed that he was having nothing more to do with me. That was cold. This was our last conversation, way before we got DF'd - I called my Mum's house and he answered the phone - he doesn't live there:

  Me : Hi Its Paul

  Him : Hi Andrew here

  Me : I hear you have changed your phone number to 999 (911 for the UK - my little joke about emergency contact only - you can tell I was bothered :-))

  Him - Well yes Paul you have made it clear by your actions that.....

  Me : Excuse me Andrew, whose house have I called?

  Him : Mums

  Me : Can you put her on the phone please?

  That was it. About two years ago now. I don't have any proof but given we had radio silence from our elders for about 3 months after a single 'initial enquiry loyalty test' I am reasonably sure he called our Elders, not the other way around. And then of course he did the 1000 mile round trip to give evidence to the JC.

  So I don't hold it against him - partly because we weren't that close and partly because I have him in the box labelled 'Mind Control Victim With A Cult Personality And A Real Personality' - I had to specially get a wide label to fit all that on, but he is worth it.

  There you have it - any questions?
• 

  Hobo Ken

  >Besty it's almost word for word like my story with my own brother , who's 2 years older.

  I like what you say about him being right so you have to be wrong , so therefore DF'd. Didn't think of it on those terms before you wrote that.

  I wonder if this kind of personality develops in those who immerse themselves so completely in the WTS life (Paul went to mts etc.)???

  In any case I would be happy if he came out but we weren't really close and like you said probably wouldn't have hung out if we were not related.

  the overwhelming feeling I have towards him is one of pity. Pity that he is so lost and yet thinks he is not. A deluded haughty person all thanks to the good old Watchtower.

  Matt
• 

  scotsman

  If we're swapping brother stories...

  When I broke the news that I wasn't a believer there was the weeping an nashing of teeth but contact was maintained with both my brothers. A year later when they found out I was in a same sex relationship things changed. The eldest encouraged my mum to inform the elders what she suspected and he cut contact but did meet me for coffee to tell me he loved me but couldn't be my friend. That was the end of that. Things were more complicated with the other one. We worked together but had no social contact, and when we parted company in business terms he still met up with me for lunch as we sorted out work stuff. He would still meet up with me now but I decided I'd had enough. We had been close but we now met to talk about his life, his work and for him to moan about the family that I had been cut off from. He wouldn't meet my partner. Eventually I told him that meeting him was faintly depressing and that I couldn't see any point in it continuing.

  Sometimes I wondered if my ending the contact with #2 was harsh, but I think the crippled contact we had kept me hoping he'd relent and was stopping me from moving on. It's a shame, as my brothers were good company and would have got on with my partner and they've missed out big time. I'd welcome either of them into my life if they dropped the homophobic stance, even if they remained JWs.

  Anyway, back to Ronnie Hunter.
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  iknowall558

  Scotsman -- but I think the crippled contact we had kept me hoping he'd relent and was stopping me from moving on.

  I think this is why it's so difficult to keep contact even when its not coming from your corner. They may look the same and sound the same to you, and vice versa but everything has changed for them. It really is like someone has died. Matt still has occasion to speak to his mum, and we have had glimpses of the Nan we knew, but on the whole the relationship is no longer a natural one and is strained. It leaves you feeling drained as you feel you have to always be on your best behaviour, be pleasant, be civil, be conciously aware of coming across as normal and happy to dispel any searching in them to find a fulfillment of any personal prophecies they'e made concerning you, so they can't turn round and say "I told you so".

  I agree with you, that all these 'brothers' and family members are missing out big time, albeit sad, but you have obviously found people who love you unconditionally, warts and all, and this is what is to be valued.

  ---

  I'd welcome either of them into my life if they dropped the homophobic stance, even if they remained JWs.

  ---

  This alone testifies to the kind of person you are, as well as besty, and says more about both of you than it does them!
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  boyzone

  Matt You've done a very courageous thing by recording this and it deserves to be heard by as many as possible. I'm often in "discussion" with JW's on the BBC website. When the subject comes up, i'll post the link to your podcast to show a wide audience just how duplicitous a JC can be.
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  scotsman

  IKA, no need to bring up my warts, I'm getting treatment for them.

  As an addendum: I asked my mum if she wanted continued contact with me and it seems she does. She's intriguing as although she wont spend time with my partner (they've met in passing) she agrees that they'd get on well if she did. Because I'm going to die at Armageddon it's her desire that I enjoy and make the most of my life. Her relationship with God supercedes all others which is a shame as she reckons she'd work for Amnesty International if she wasn't a JW. I go easier on her as she's in her 70s and she's navigated a fairly tortuous path to remain close to me. A good person trapped in a bad ideology.
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  dozy

  Thanks Matt for putting on the podcast.

  A couple of points that intrigued me as an ex-elder who has been on many JCs (though not one dealing with apostasy)…

  Firstly , the evidence used was witness testimony from an elder and your brother. On both grounds , as you maintained , the evidence was inadmissible.

  The elder had visited you on shepherding calls and was using the information that he elicited in these conversations in an effort to DF you. Surely it is unethical to visit someone in an effort to help them and then a few months later refer over and over to this conversation. Yet the WTS in pedophile cases time & again has claimed that discussions in “pastoral visits” were private and claimed “clergy privilege” and therefore could not be used as evidence in a court of law.

  Your brother repeated private information made on one-on-one conversations that he had with you. Only one witness was present. Also the discussion was made partially as your brother is an elder , who was trying to “help you”. (Actually he sounded quite upset.)

  It was completely unethical , on these testimonies alone , to DF you and many elders I know would not have allowed the proceedings to take place , or at least voted down the DF at the conclusion.

  The testimonies were almost word-for-word. Clearly the witnesses had colluded and their evidence would have been torn apart in a court of law.

  I was also worried that the chairman constantly asked you whether or not you believed in “the worship of Jesus” (which the WTS has in its charter anyway and used to be in the NWT) and other questions. It wasn’t his job to try to trip you up or to cross examine you looking for additional evidence. He is a judge , not a prosecuting counsel. The committee simply had to listen to the testimonies and establish whether they were true and admissible. As they may well have been true , but certainly were not admissible , and no other evidence was given , the JC should have acquitted you.

  Also the committee , having been unable to establish that you were actively teaching others , fell back on the additional grounds in the OM book of “stubbornly holding to false views”. The elders book expressly doesn’t include this provision & I remember a KM school where it was stated that an apostate must be actively teaching or promoting his views. This does seem to be a bit of catch-all that the WTS have invented , without any biblical basis , and similar to the provision after 1979 that even “thinking” apostate thoughts were grounds for DFing.