hhmm makes you wonder what going on hehe
What Works Best on Exposing JW's? All of the above....
by AllTimeJeff 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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isaacaustin
or how many persons they really are..
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isaacaustin
probably the latter...another created name to make Reniaa's posts look supported from a different angle
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Spike Tassel
The Apostle Paul had a heavenly calling, so naturally being in a personal covenant relationship with Jehovah (mediated by Jesus Christ, as a member of the New Covenant) was of personal importance. After all, had Saul the Pharisee not had a change of action after the resurrected Jesus Christ met him on the road to Damascus, his future prospects would have been entirely different. To quote the words of "passwordprotected", "Paul said that the testimony of Christ as mediator and ransom was why he was appointed an apostle, so obviously it was a big deal to him." The translation of Apostle Paul's own words, having been quoted on this Topic serve to expose him as a real JW, anointed and humble, honest and hungry for "every utterance coming forth through Jehovah's mouth" (to quote the NWT translation of Jesus' words at Matthew 4:4).
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Tuesday
Whether people deny it or not these sites do promote hatred and mocking of witnesses or pro-witnesses and what is our crime? Only that we believe what you do not anymore, so why does this make us worthy of mockery and hate?
I used to think this same thing until someone pointed out something differently to me.
They talked about White Surpremist groups, they sincerely believe there's going to be some sort of race war. They believe in the preservation of the white race. Can you have a civilized discussion with them to get them to no longer believe? I guess with some of them you can, however usually they have to go through their own breaking point when they realize what they believed was wrong. What has been the most effective way to minimalize membership in these organizations? Believe it or not mockery has been the most effective method. There's media mocking racists, documentaries openly exposing and mocking them, many jokes mocking them.
Those who are in, are in. How many people honestly got out due to discussion with someone if they didn't have any doubts whatsoever? I would venture to say not many. However for new recruits, how many do you think would join a group that is openly mocked? The thought wouldn't even enter their mind, same with white surpremists.
So now I see that mockery can be a valid method opposing a group.
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designs
passwordprotected,
I do speak from experience having attended Church of Christ, Baptist, Calvary Chapel, and Presbyterian Churches.
The freedom to choose what to study can be greater until it comes to formal doctrine. Try standing up in a Presbyterian Church and disagreeing on the Westminster Confession, not so good in the conservative denominations.
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Qcmbr
If I may:
The only thing I ever found that works is to ask for evidence. Its simple , non-offensive and as long as it is worded correctly non-confrontational.
I've read reniaa's responses for some time and (forgive me for using you as an example!) and found it a good study of what happens when people with strong beliefs butt heads. The communication problem for both sides is that both argue about interpretations rather than focus on concrete evidences and when we don't focus on evidence we are all farting in the wind with regards to who is right and who or what is wrong.
I spend a fair amount of time in discussion with a close friend who believes very strongly in his faith and each time he declares his belief I see myself just a few years prior - I was also so sure - and then I try to drop back from arguing individual viewpoints (though I confess I fail at times!) but simply ask for proof of each held belief.
Reniaa and all other 'believers' don't know that they are right they simply believe they are. Belief cannot be exposed and can rarely be reasoned with since belief by its very nature is our human response to a lack of evidence but it can be dislodged if it is constantly brought face to face with its cause and questioned therein.
Those outside the watchtower can see easily that it is built on nothing substantial beyond clan bonding, nothing remotely factual and is in fact - like all religions - a form of cage or social constraint - but for those within the cage looking outwards it is almost impossible to conceive that they are mentally trapped and instead see the very bars that constrain them as in reality part of the cage that entraps those outside; as a caged animal at a zoo may percieve the human visitors as caged so the believer thinks they are free and unencumbered and all others just haven't realised yet.
To expose the cage one must merely hold up a large enough mirror. To expose the watchtower or any false system just hold up the mirror. My mirror was held up - inadvertantly -by a good friend who left my belief system and finally allowed myself to ask - and face the question - what are my beliefs actually based upon? Once I was brutally honest with myself I found my cage door wasn't even locked.
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AllTimeJeff
Hi password.... Thanks for your thoughts.... I'll get to Reinna's unusual question in a minute...
Jeff, I think a level of balance is needed, in particular from yourself. You've always written in a considered but uncompromising way. I'd wager that's the way to best reach a JW who's confused and worried about how they're feeling re. having doubts and is looking for some truth.
Thanks. I write the way I do because I believe that there is a certain amount of angst that you cannot have, even if you feel it. I write first and foremost because of the cynical, intellectual dishonesty I found while in.
If I wrote for myself, my tone would be different. But all of these essays I write, I do so (or attempt to do so) from the point of view of a JW struggling.... I need ideas for topics, but once I get started, I just type a lot..... But I don't write those essays for me, in that, its not me venting per se about how I was treated. Those will always have a different tone. I try to seperate the two...
So balance, yeah, I agree....
It's my opinion that's there enough vitriol against the JWs on this forum, and while I completely understand why people feel that way (and Reniaa's posts certainly don't help), exiting or doubting JWs need a firm voice of reason, which, IMO, you helped provide.
I do agree here as well. I understand that anger very much. As I have stated before, I don't think that anger helps current JW's who have been indoctrinated to view apostates as angry, dangerous people. Of course, this is another lie, as most who leave probably don't come here, but there is an undercurrent of anger here that the Governing Body causes, yet then says its their fault for being angry.
So, by all means shoot from the hip when you have to, but don't lose what you've been offering on JWN and freeminds.
I will...
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isaacaustin
WT Vassal said:
The Apostle Paul had a heavenly calling, so naturally being in a personal covenant relationship with Jehovah (mediated by Jesus Christ, as a member of the New Covenant) was of personal importance. After all, had Saul the Pharisee not had a change of action after the resurrected Jesus Christ met him on the road to Damascus, his future prospects would have been entirely different. To quote the words of "passwordprotected", "Paul said that the testimony of Christ as mediator and ransom was why he was appointed an apostle, so obviously it was a big deal to him." The translation of Apostle Paul's own words, having been quoted on this Topic serve to expose him as a real JW, anointed and humble, honest and hungry for "every utterance coming forth through Jehovah's mouth" (to quote the NWT translation of Jesus' words at Matthew 4:4).
My reply: All Christians are annointed Vassal. And Paul made quite clear he was not a JW...he was a Witness of Jesus.
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AllTimeJeff
Reinna asked me
Is this a better life Jeff as you yourself say is a danger to hate and mock what you once loved?
This is Reinna spouting the Governing Body line. To me, this point of view implies that those who leave JW's all become angry apostates, who spend all of their time doing nothing but bringing down their former brothers. Reinna, you are wrong. JWN, while certainly the biggest forum for JW's on the internet, represents a very small subset of former JW's, namely, those who would share their experiences on the internet. Most don't.
When you consider that hundreds of thousands leave each year and don't go on the internet, it actually disproves what the GB and you maintain. Most leave and don't look back. I envy them. I hope to join them when the time is right for me.
I don't hate my former friends Reinna. Most people who leave left with a broken heart. The GB practices emotional extortion and you have to choose quite often with following your conscience when you find out you have been lied to and your friends and (esp) family.
You like to focus on the anger expressed here, as if that proves your point. You say that all anger and mocking is wrong. YOU use the word hate. Even JW's teach that there is more then one definition. You willingly suspend disbelief when you try to lump all former JW's into one group. You yourself do the very thing you accuse ALL of the people here of doing.
This forum represents the one thing that is abhorent to the GB, individuality. It appears that you, for whatever reason, view us all the same, and that we all act the same. I would expect nothing less of an indoctrinated JW apologist. You actually prove my point, that JW's who buy in cannot see anything on their own. What is so plain and apprant to most of us you simply refuse to acknowledge, and that my dear, is all on you.
Behind every post that you say "hate" and "mocks" JW's Reinna, is a story of abuse of power by elders, broken hearts in having to have no life with parents, grandparents and children, stories of people who actually believed the GB were correct in their prophecies only to find out that they lie and have concealed evidence regarding such lies. People here have been hurt or touched in one way or another by pedophiles that have been allowed to have easy access to young children. Others forgo college and opportunities to better their education because the GB told them so, and they got a lot of pats on the back. Now, they realize they were duped.
YOU Reinna, are the one who mocks the real pain of those here. YOU Reinna, are the one who hates anyone with out the Governing Body seal of approval. You are a JW apologist, and when it comes to dogma, its always your right to disagree with me. But your judgmental, holier then thou attitude is disgusting when it comes to people. You mock the damage that the GB has directly caused, and then have the gall (as usual) to say that its the fault of those who left? Get real.
Instead of trying to understand the reasons behind the anger and emotion here, you merely observe it, and say that the anger and emotion itself proves what? That the GB is right about apostates? What does it prove? You are always so fond of pointing out the anger and emotion, but you make no effort to understand it, and that, in a nutshell, is why your arguments are so surface oriented.
Most here don't hate JW's as people Reinna, but what I hate is your attitude. I don't hate you, but your smugness (along with your BS story imo) leaves a lot to be desired. Your hit and run comments (i.e. "Whiiiiine! Why are you all upset again?") are as predictable as the latest WT article insisting that 1914 is a real prophetic date in the bible.
Whatever motivates you Reinna, it is clear to me that YOU are the one in pain and anguish, and I wish you at some point to deal with that.