That was an excellent presentation of how the Witnesses misread Revelation 20 Narkissos. I have not seen it laid out as plainly as that before how stretched some of the interpretations are.
wide ... broad... life.....death
by KAYTEE 80 Replies latest jw friends
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designs
Arius was persecuted and his followers were on the defense.
1900 years of Trinitarian on Trinitarian violence can't be brushed under rug. What is wrong with that system of belief that produces such violence-
Blackwater, the Evangelical Army.
It just doesn't end with you people.
designs
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reniaa
Hi narkissus
You haven't answered narkissus though about who are these 'nations' that satan subverts to his way again at gog, they number more than grains of sand but everyone was supposedly destroyed at armageddon and those that survived and came out of the tribulation come into Godly reward if not destroyed this has to be addressed you cannot ignore it.
Daniels statue and the crushing of the feet etc none of the end time propheies allow for survivors that aren't judged one way or the other.
Reniaa
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quietlyleaving
reniaa, take another look at Narks points, he does address the dilemma you raise, imo
And this point (narkissos made) could actually work in favour of JW end time (that never quite comes) interpretation
Another interesting pattern that can be noted in Revelation (which I believe is partly accidental, but can be appreciated from a non-critical perspective as well) is that the "end" is delayed again and again. The seven seals open on the seven trumpets which open on the seven cups; even the "nations" destroyed in chapter 20 are there again in 21:22,24; 22:2. -
Narkissos
reniaa,
I have answered as far as I could. Throughout Revelation the "nations" (and tribes, tongues) stand for mankind in its broadest diversity, sometimes with the Jewish slightly restrictive (and occasionally pejorative) nuance of goyim, "Gentiles" or "heathen". Being more specific here would imply being more specific than the text.
I for one am not interested in building a narratively consistent end-time scenario with a patchwork of unrelated text excerpts simply because they happened to end up in "the Bible". There are plenty who do that and they are doing a great job at refuting each other before time refutes them all.
As far as possible I try to read the texts as they are and feel no need (or, sometimes, resist the temptation) to make them clearer, more consistent, more explicit, more "reality-like" -- or, more contradictory! -- than they are. I reckon there are many sketches of end-time scenarii underlying the NT, and most likely several of them within Revelation itself (which incidentally contributes to the fascinating and challenging character of the book). That is not such a big issue, especially if you don't miss the forest for the trees -- that all of them, especially in Revelation, were clearly expecting the "end" to come in their time, in the historical context of imperial Rome.
I think of apocalypses as ruins of ancient temples. Some visitors just get caught in the romantic charm of the past as past and wouldn't change anything to it. Others think of rebuilding. In a sense the latter can be deemed closer to the spirit and method of the ancient builders. But they have to destroy what is left of the past and what they may do with it will be something else.
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reniaa
Hi narcissus
If all you are doing is highlighting what you think are inconsistences without any conclusions your just adding to the confusion. As far as my own research goes, the conlusions of the witnesses tie in with other bible end time Prophecies better than any other faith does. Lets be honest here not many christian religions even dare to prepare for armageddon they find the prophecies too difficult and conflicting. The majority of christians I know believe you die and either goto heaven or hell simple answer and completely wipes out the need for revelation, Daniel, jesus's warnings, or the tribulation. but then they are making Jesus and the bible liars.
The revelation 20 shows the dead that are STANDING Alive before the throne will be judged on what they have done! but in regards to what? If some distant land person gets resurrected that never heard the message how can he be judged? the whole point of the resurrection is to give us a chance our previous life robbed us of. The coherancy of the Jw teachings I believe that yes they do give me a whole and believable package. your argument about the delays is weak the revelation is not chronologiccal it jumps backwards and forwards to various events, it's visions are hard to understand but yes we should try to make a coherent whole that ties all the end-time prophecies together.
I want answers not confusion. so yes if someone wants to say such a thing doesn't mean this but can offer me no alternative explanation then they lose credibility in my eyes.
Reniaa
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Chalam
Hi Reniaa,
Are you just ignoring my question or are you just unable to answer it?
Here it is again, your wrods in italic, the subsequent question in bold below and the scriptures you claim are false thereafter.
reniaa-hi oompa you hit the nail on the head it's the 'Hello goodbye formula.
you wake someone up out of death tell him he's a sinner and send him to hell.
You have said what Jesus says later on in that chapter is not true and called Him a liar no?
Revelation 20 (New International Version)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
All the best,
Stephen
Titus 3:10 (New International Version)
10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
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slimboyfat
I want answers not confusion. so yes if someone wants to say such a thing doesn't mean this but can offer me no alternative explanation then they lose credibility in my eyes.
The world does not owe you answers reniaa. People who are honest about not having all the answers are not the enemy.
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quietlyleaving
I guess as humans we are inclined to seek totalizing systems of thought for security. I have a quote tucked away somewhere that I wish I could retreive
edit: here it is
"without protection! let us protect ourselves against all protection" Derrida
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reniaa
hi slim
did I say enemy? you are putting words in my mouth. it is easy to unravel because you can pull on any point, but to put together to find agreement and coherency now that is the admitedly hard bit. So yes if someone says that doesn't work I expect an alternate explanation otherwise i'm sticking with the original.
Jw's saying we are in a condition of dead because of adamic sin is biblically confirmed. that revelations has these supposedly DEAD people standing before God is also there. That we have 1000 years on earth that just doesn't fit in with the "you die and either goto heaven or Hell' doctrine is there too.
I am not strong on prophecy, pitchard could argue the fine points with narcissus easily better than myself but I can see a cop out, if there is no fluent alternative to the explanation.
Hi chalam
Symbolic is symbolic it would be very foolish to take revelation totally literally or you will be waiting for a plague of locusts to hit you among other things. So no I didn't call jesus a liar I am saying we are talking symbolic and figuratively here. John is talking on a vision he had from Jesus in much same way daniel did.
Reniaa