Topics for discussion with JWs - part 3: Homosexual animals...

by Albert Einstein 113 Replies latest jw friends

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    Isn't this a discussion to have with God not the Jehovah's witnesses?

    Romans 1:27 (New International Version)

    27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    Witnesses did not put these scriptures in the bible so we are not answerable for them only God is for his own rules!

    Reniaa, check the message bible below. Putting the 2 translations (NIV and Message) together it sounds to me that the bible is moralizing against lust rather than homsexuality. In that case then we would have to question what witnesses are "putting" in the bible.

    Romans 1:25-27 (The Message)

    24-25 So God said, in effect, "If that's what you want, that's what you get." It wasn't long before they were living in a pigpen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out. And all this because they traded the true God for a fake god, and worshiped the god they made instead of the God who made them—the God we bless, the God who blesses us. Oh, yes!

    26-27 Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human either—women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Three words: Natural Law fallacy

    Look it up.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    quietly leaving the message is not a version of the bible I am familar with, from just reading it now its sounds perilously close to being a paraphrased bible which I personal don't like they are too subject to the opinion of the person paraphrasing but this aside.

    Homosexuality is not a law you can blur edges or find loopholes on however many translations you goto, the Jews Gods people for centuries clearly understood from God's original inspired writing that homosexuality was men having sex with men and this was completely condemned by God. this is fairly clear and undisputed.

  • Lillith26
    Lillith26

    Iam a Deist, I believe in a creator God 100% so this discussion is not moot! it is very valid! only unlike you I have done my homework on the topic of homosexuality-

    Evolution is a natural process and yes we see it happening in the world around us every day- My child evolved from a small fetus inside my womb into a newborn, this process of evolution took 9 months- My child is now 10 and can walk, talk, read, write, count etc... this is a natural progression/evolution in motion. So we have come along way since the flat earth thing (sorry if the elephants offened you), as our human society evolves I would hope that so does its understanding of the difference between fact and fiction. If we as humanbeings can evolve physically in our life time then it would be logical to assume that we can interlectually and morally evolve as a society as well. Do we really need a ficticious book written by sexually frusted and perverted old men to guide our every thought and action???? I think not! and more to the point- do you? If I were you I would concider my words very carefully from this point onwards- do your homework- get your facts straight- you must always be ready to defend your christian beliefs because it aint the boogyman Satan you need to worry about destroying your fairytales- Deists are a fast growing breed of Homosapiens and not all of us are tactfull!!!

  • DaCheech
    DaCheech

    reniaa, the bible cannot be our guide..... it contradicts itself tooooooo many times.

    you want me to count for you, or you want me to send the links to the times it has been discussed?

    who would buy a encyclopedia that says one thing in page one, and the opposite in page 2?

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ4hVmk7L28

    Read through the comments, you'll see every sort of defense you can think of from Christians and JWs alike.

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday
    Homosexuality is not a law you can blur edges or find loopholes on however many translations you goto, the Jews Gods people for centuries clearly understood from God's original inspired writing that homosexuality was men having sex with men and this was completely condemned by God. this is fairly clear and undisputed.

    You mean that it's a sin, or do you mean that it was never meant to occur. Let's look at some basic points:

    Homosexuality occurs in nature (see the dolphin or the American Bison where 85% of all sexual relations occur between those of the same sex)

    There is no scripture that says Satan is influencing Animal instinct.

    Homosexuality amongst animals is a very well documented means of both population control and bonding.

    If you are to argue that Adam's sin caused instinct to become imperfect, since humans show instinct how would you know if this isn't the case with humankind?

    Since homosexuality is a means of population control, wouldn't this make sense that as human population grows so would the number of homosexuals in the world?

    Nowhere is anyone saying that homosexuality isn't considered a sin in the bible, but so are women speaking in congregations. It also says the sun can stand still when in actuality that would require the earth to stop rotating around the sun.

    If you're going to be an apologist for the bible and explain why things are considered sin, you have to know science and the bible.

    If you believe in evolution then you believe we are animals and so we can be equated with them, God hates murder to and yet animals atm happily kill and eat each other. If you equate yourself with animals it is okay to do these things and so you accept the boundaries an evolution world sets for you.

    Yes but if you believe in God you have to take all the cultures that readily did this as proof that he created us to do such a thing. No doubt you've said the argument about a shared Conscience as a point of God, yet many cultures thrived on war and several on cannibalism. I can't even think of any scriptures that do denounce cannibalism, and as for killing... while the OT spouts "Thou shalt not kill" the Israelites seemed to be doing an awful lot of this. Why did God create us with the same instincts as animals, then condemn those instincts?

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday

    Lastly for those who don't have youtube at work, here is the text of my question:

    I've been chomping at the bit to ask this question for a while, especially after I viewed AZSuperman01's excellent video discussing the topic. I'm going to use a different view however. It's also going to be a nice change of pace from specifically quoting scripture or Watchtower articles. This tough question is in regards to homosexuality. The belief is that homosexuality is unnatural and an "abomination" against nature. The problem: There are documented cases of homosexuality in nature. There are several species that carry on in homosexual relationships, in fact there is a VERY well documented case of penguins in the New York City zoo that carried on a homosexual relationship for years. If Satan is influencing people to turn to homosexuality how does this explain the cases of animals, they don't have a conscience they only act on instinct. No where in the bible does it say that Satan is holding power over the animals and forcing them to do this. So why are there cases of homosexuality in nature. If God created animals, and created some of them with the instinct towards homosexuality, why would he condemn it? So Tough Question number 17: Explain homosexuality in nature, where it came from, why it occurs and most of all if it's a natural occurance why does God condemn it?
  • mindmelda
    mindmelda

    The expressions used in Romans are explaining acts of both a homosexual and heterosexual nature used in idolatry, as was common in the society that Christians in Rome and the Roman/Greek world were living in.

    The Bible never addresses "homosexuality" because it wasn't a concept back when it was written. The idea of sexuality being an identity did not exist in the times or culture.

    The Biblical passages being discussed Romans are referring to specific acts of idolatry encouraged in Roman or Greek temples which make them spiritual idolatry as well as the fleshy sin of fornication or adultery, not "homosexuality".

    Jesus Christ had nothing to say about the subject of homosexuality. If avoiding it were vital to faith, wouldn't he have emphasized it in some notable fashion? Are we saying Christ forgot to mention something of vital importance to Christianity?

    Paul discusses specific homosexual acts (not homosexuality as a topic) twice. The words he uses in 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 that are often translated as "homosexuals" or "men who lie with men" are in the original Greek "oute malakoi oute adenokourtesai" .

    The phrase idiomatically means "the loose man and the man who uses him". Most reputable biblical scholars acknowledge that the exact meaning of both words is somewhat lost in idiom as they're both very euphemistic terms for submissive and aggressive forms of male prostitution common in Greece at the time and the men who availed themselves of these services, and done in the name of various gods of sex, fertility and erotic love.

    (Paul was apparently using the "nice words" for these acts, there are much cruder ones. But, because they're so unspecific, scholars have had to work harder than to recreate the social and cultural context of the phrase.)

    Interestingly, women did this idolatrous prostititution too, it wasn't reserved only for males. The female form of the practice is also mentioned by Paul in Romans 1: 18-29 Also, the acts performed by these prostitutes were both homosexual and heterosexual. The person who paid determined the act peformed. They were the "user" condemned there by Paul.

    That's the two scriptures that are usually used to universally condemn homosexuality. Neither one is applicable to two loving individuals of the same gender in a committed and exclusive relationship. Neither one specifically and universally condemns same sex attraction or all same sex acts.

    There's some significant evidence that the very early church even sanctified some same sex unions with a unique marriage ceremony, and the two individuals involved where born again with spirit and saints of the church.

    Homosexuality became feared and out of social favor in certain times and clergymen adjusted the scriptures to enforce those fears, but tampering with the essential meaning of scripture is of course, not ever a good thing.

    For a time, the Catholic church was more concerned with masturbation as a sin than homosexuality, and they chose to translate "malakoi" as "masturbators". Just another example of using the Bible (for a time) to get a specific legalistic view enforced. Why "masturbators" one may ask? Because the phrase "malakoi" is so unspecific. It's just a word in Greek that means literally, "soft". The verbal form "malakos" is used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to clothing and other items that are soft to the feel, tactilely speaking.

    Many modern and more scholarly translations choose to render this phrase "the used and their users" which directs it away from a specific homosexual application, since it is is clear that Paul is also discussing heterosexual acts that would be idolatry to Christians. The WTS has already passed judgment on those translations and declared the NWT "more accurate" of course. They refuse this advanced interpretation and naturally prefer the more legalistic and condemning one.

    Even if you reject the above interpretation, I think it would at least do everyone some good as a thinking person to wonder if there is any room for a different interpretation of the above scriptures and acknowledge that many people interpret these scriptures, with good scholarship behind it, differently than an out and out condemnation of homosexuality.

    After all, the WTS and many other fundamental or orthodox groups been condemning homosexuality, something that is obviously a natural biological element of both animal and human creatures, for many years now and changing that would involve eating a lot of humble pie in a very public way. Are they more concerned with pleasing God and showing Christlike mercy or keeping their power structures and credibility intact?

    If your hatred of certain groups is your main appeal and mainly how you designate yourself as a Christian, then I would say that you have missed the point about a great many things Christ taught, like mercy, forgiveness, and love. After all the book of James encourages us that if we err as Christians, err on the side of compassion, not judgment.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    Did you ever get any good answer on that?

    I don't know if denyaa spoke to this in her posts because I refuse to read them...so forgive me if this has been answered already.

    The answer I got is that they were not created that way by Jehovah. Satan made animals behave that way, just like he made the pigs run off the cliff.

    Apparently the Supreme Evil One is not too busy with evilmongering and fighting the holymongering of the Supreme Good One, His Son, the angels, and a few million jws to fit in a little gay monkey sex.

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