Topics for discussion with JWs - part 3: Homosexual animals...

by Albert Einstein 113 Replies latest jw friends

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday
    Show me where it says that if she doesn't live with him, that would relieve him of his obligations. The marriage was official following the ceremony, consumation was not necessary.

    I didn't say consumation was necessary, however the moving in with the husband was the last part of the ceremony.

    The victim could be given the choice. DA's often confer with victims before recommending a sentence.

    I'd be interested to see a study on this to see what the results are. I don't know what would be done in the case of a serial rapist, but regardless it is a very interesting theory.

    This presumes that he would have had all the rights that he would have had by marriage under normal circumstances, which he didn't.

    The only restriction he had was that he couldn't divorce her, unless you have other scriptures that show other restrictions.

    The reason that David killed Uriah the Hittite was that Bethsheba was pregnant. David tried to cover this up by having Uriah spend some R&R with his wife. Uriah refused to enjoy time with her while his brothers in arms were in the field. David sent Uriah back carrying his own death sentence. With Uriah out of the way, David quickly married Bethsheba to make the child appear legitamate, thus avoiding a scandle. The thing to keep in mind is that just because the Bible records an event does not mean that it condones it. A number of verses later, David's actions are specifically condemned by Nathan the prophet.
    Divorce by either party could only be granted for cause. Bethsheba had no cause to ask for a divorce. Uriah wasn't asking for a divorce either as he had no knowledge of the affair. A divorce simply wasn't going to happen at all. David took the course he did because he felt the need to marry her quickly. If he married her, say, 8 months before the baby arrived; it would have been a huge scandle.

    I did mention that this was definetly part of the cause of their cover-up was to stop a scandal. However, don't you think if all that was needed was cause by the woman to divorce her husband Bath-Sheba could've simply lied with the King as her witness? I'm sure you agree had divorce been on the table, this would've been their first option instead of killing the man (or second option as the case may be)? By them plotting to kill the man, it leads me to believe that divorce wasn't an option for her; regardless of cause needed or not because as I said she would have the King as her witness it would've been a simple thing to lie. Please don't tell me that lying was not something that David would do as he had several times in scriptures previous, and if he's capable of murder he's capable of lying.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    • She moves in, turns around and walks right back out again. He can't declare divorce and refuse support. Keep in mind that the society would be very sympathetic to the victim.
    • There is no evidence that Bethsheba was aware of the plot to kill Uriah.
    • I have no doubt that David was capable of a lie. The question is whether or not they could come up with a believable lie. If David had been seen as smearing an innocent man to steal his wife, it would have been a major scandle.
    • Even if they had lied, she got the divorce, married David, and out pops baby 8 months later, David would have a scandle even bigger than he was trying to avoid in the first place. It would be obvious to everyone what had happened.
    • David thought this was the plan that he would be most likely to get away with.
  • Tuesday
    Tuesday
    She moves in, turns around and walks right back out again.

    Any evidence of this ever happening?

    There is no evidence that Bethsheba was aware of the plot to kill Uriah.

    She was aware of the plot to get him home to sleep with her, therefore I would venture to say she would be aware of the other plot as well.

    I have no doubt that David was capable of a lie. The question is whether or not they could come up with a believable lie. If David had been seen as smearing an innocent man to steal his wife, it would have been a major scandle.

    Do you think the people would question a King capable of the atrocities David had committed, or who was considered a national hero like David was?

    Even if they had lied, she got the divorce, married David, and out pops baby 8 months later, David would have a scandle even bigger than he was trying to avoid in the first place. It would be obvious to everyone what had happened.

    You're telling me Israelites were ignorant of premature babies?

    David thought this was the plan that he would be most likely to get away with.

    Killing someone vs. lying, which is easier to get away with... I'm still going to go with lying as being far easier to pull off than murder.

    Regardless this is another straw man, I don't know why we even ended up down this path. We're clearly far away from the original posts intention and we're not even debating anything worth-while. Post your next post dealing with some minute detail about David and Bath-sheba and end this ridiculousness.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    Any evidence of this ever happening?

    Any evidence of a rape victim being forced to live with the perpetrator?

    She was aware of the plot to get him home to sleep with her, therefore I would venture to say she would be aware of the other plot as well.

    Read the verses. Uriah did not go home. Verses 9, 10 and 13 specifically say so. There is nothing to indicate she knew anything about any plot. There is no reason to believe that she had any knowledge of him being in the area.

    9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master's servants and did not go down to his house. 10 When David was told, "Uriah did not go home," he asked him, "Haven't you just come from a distance? Why didn't you go home?" 11 Uriah said to David, "The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents, and my master Joab and my lord's men are camped in the open fields. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and lie with my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!" 12 Then David said to him, "Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back." So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David's invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master's servants; he did not go home. (NIV)

    Do you think the people would question a King capable of the atrocities David had committed, or who was considered a national hero like David was?

    Yes. It was all about David saving face.

    You're telling me Israelites were ignorant of premature babies?

    You’re telling me Israelites were ignorant of the difference between a full-term and a premature baby? If the baby had been 8 or 9 pounds, it would have been obvious that it was not a premature baby. He didn’t want to take the chance. Especially if he was going to present the baby to the priest, before the public, when the child was 8 days old.

    Killing someone vs. lying, which is easier to get away with... I'm still going to go with lying as being far easier to pull off than murder.

    Not necessarily, not in this case. The issue in David’s case was not whether or not he would get caught, but who would know. David was very concerned about what others thought of him. He was trying to get rid of the one person who did know so that others would not find out.

    A sociological understanding is in order here. Shame, in any culture is a very powerful, painful thing to endure. People will go to great lengths to avoid it or relieve themselves of it.

    In shame cultures, if one is shamed, that individual is highly motivated to get rid of the source of the shame. This is why honor killings and ritual suicide are common occurrences in honor/shame societies. It does not matter to the person that is shamed if the one killed is actually innocent. David was willing to go to any length to avoid being shamed. He decided to swat the fly with a sledgehammer.

    Your assumptions about what would happen in the case of David are built on the paradigm of one who comes from a guilt society. The assumptions of a guilt culture paradigm do not apply to a shame culture. If one is going to make assumptions about the actions of ancient people, they should first study how the ancients thought, what motivated them, and how the culture at large would view the actions in question.

    Shame-Other people believe:
    culture
    I believeI didn't do itI did it
    I didn't do itNo problemI am shamed and dishonored by their belief
    I did itNo-one knows, so I am not shamedI am guilty and am punished
    Guilt-Other people believe:
    culture
    I believeI didn't do itI did it
    I didn't do itNo problemI protest my innocence and fight the accusation
    I did itI am expected to feel guilty regardlessI am guilty and am punished

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