Clarifying the Trinity Doctrine

by UnDisfellowshipped 123 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    Romans 8:17
    Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

    Matthew 24:36
    "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    John 17:3 (New International Version)

    3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    1 Corinthians 15:24
    Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    trinity an oxymoron paradise of unbiblical rhetoric

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hi Reniaa, how are you? Thank you for your post! Below I will comment some on the verses you posted:

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    I agree wholeheartedly with that Verse, as do all Trinitarians (that I have known). But, think about this: That verse compares the relationship of God and Jesus to that of a husband and wife. The husband is the "head" of the wife in the sense that he has a position of authority over her within the marriage, correct? This headship has nothing to do with their status as human beings, does it? It's not teaching that a wife is a lower-class being, less human than her husband, is it?

    In the same way, you cannot properly use that verse to teach that Jesus is a lower-class being, who has a lesser nature than His Father. But, that verse DOES show that The Father has a position of authority over The Son. On that point, at least, we can agree.

    To be consistent, if you say that 1 Corinthians 11:3 means Jesus has a lesser nature than God, then that verse is also teaching that a wife has a lesser nature than her husband (she would then be lower than human).

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    If you please read the context of this verse, you will see that Paul is saying that there are many "so-called gods and lords" that people worship, but for true Christians there is only One God and One Lord. Paul calls The Father "God" and The Son "Lord."

    Paul separates Jesus from the "so-called god" category, therefore, Jesus must be a True God. (See John 1:1, Isaiah 9:6, John 20:28)

    If Jesus is a True God, but He is a different God from Jehovah, then how many True Gods do you have? That would mean you serve TWO TRUE GODS.

    But, the Bible, all the way through, teaches ONLY ONE TRUE GOD (See Isaiah chapters 40-50, for example).

    But, most importantly, if 1 Corinthians 8:6 is saying that ONLY The Father is God for Christians, and NOT Jesus, then, by the same reasoning, it is equally teaching that ONLY Jesus is Lord for Christians, and NOT The Father. But that cannot be true, because the New Testament teaches that The Father is Lord too.

    If 1st Corinthians 8:6 is NOT saying that The Father cannot be Lord, then it is also NOT teaching that Jesus cannot be God.

    Romans 8:17
    Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

    This is speaking about positions or authority or rank, and is not discussing nature or essence.

    Matthew 24:36
    "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    True, as a Human, there were some things Jesus did not know on earth. But, the Bible also teaches that the Resurrected Jesus knows all things, and can read hearts and minds, and that Jesus hears and answers all of His people's prayers, things ONLY Jehovah can do.

    John 17:3 (New International Version)

    3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    This verse does not prove that Jesus is not God. Jude 1:4 says Jesus is our ONLY LORD -- does that mean The Father is not our Lord also?

    1 Corinthians 15:24
    Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    The Son is in subjection to The Father. Always has been, and always will be. On this point, we actually agree.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    ALWAYS in subjection yet co-equal and co-eternal by trinitarian rhetoric? oxymoron again?

    I did do a long reply to your words on the scriptures but I will let them stand becasue I think they clearly keep Jesus and God separate and distinct from each other.

    The bible says Jesus is God's son not God himself why would it lie? jesus had a chance to confirm this when he was accused of claiming himself to be God what does he do?

    John 10:33-36 (New International Version)

    33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

    34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' [a] ? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

    he confirms only that he is god's son not God an opportunity missed would you say?

  • The Oracle
    The Oracle

    I don't believe in the Trinity, but I have to say that undisfellowshipped's arguments make some sense.

    If I had to score this exchange as if it were a professional debate, I'd have to give the nod to undisfellowshipped over Reniaa.

    It is interesting how you can make some good sounding arguments for things that really have no basis in reality.

    Just an observation, and of course my personal opinion - which is far from infallible.

    Cheers,

    The Oracle

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Dude. Sometimes watching Fundies and Witnoids go at it reminds me of the experience of an 8th grade cafeteria food fight that went over during a pitch black power failure.

    Carry on.

    BTS

  • The Oracle
    The Oracle

    haha...power failure at highschool in the cafeteria...

    You're bringing back the memories...wow those were fun and simpler times!

    Loved it!

    Peace

    The Oracle

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi, UnDisfellowshipped.

    Thank you for your reply.
    But since this thread is already the past thing, I make my reply the last now.

    Where does the Bible teach that only The Father has the Name YHWH?

    I think that you can use this question only when there is no such fact.
    (I have already answered to such a question from the Bible in other thread.)

    And that explanation that "the Father" is Jehovah is not my own view/opinion but Trinity doctrine itself.

    When The Angel of YHWH spoke to Moses in the burning bush, He declared that His Everlasting Name was I AM, YHWH. Jesus declared that He was I AM (John 8:58, 8:24).
    Who was this Angel? And if Jesus is I AM, then He is YHWH as well.

    I think that I already explained enough also about this.

    I said repeatedly that Jesus is "I AM."
    That is because he is the "God" in essence.
    It means "Jesus is the same as Jehovah in essence."

    But even you describe it as "Jesus" repeatedly.
    He has the name of "Jesus."
    Similarly, "the Father" has the name of "Jehovah."

    And there is no the divine name "Jehovah" in the New Testament as you also know well.
    Rather, the name of "Jesus" is used in the New Testament repeatedly.
    That is because "the Son" is "the leading part" (head the cast) in the New Testament.

    possible
    http://godpresencewithin.blog86.fc2.com/

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Reniaa, thank you for your reply. I do enjoy discussing the Bible with you and hearing different viewpoints and interpretations of the Scriptures. And from what I've seen, I think you really do care about knowing the truth about God, Jesus, and the Bible. I commend you for that.

    You said:

    "ALWAYS in subjection yet co-equal and co-eternal by trinitarian rhetoric? oxymoron again?"

    The Trinity teaching says that the Three Persons are Co-Equal in their nature, or essence, just like a human husband and wife are co-equal in their nature as human beings. Also, the Trinity teaching says that the Three Persons are Co-Equal in knowledge, power, attributes, qualities, and everything that makes God be God. It also teaches that each of the Three Persons deserves Co-Equal worship from human beings and angels.

    But, the Trinity teaching does NOT say that they are Co-Equal in their function or relationship to each other within the Trinity ("Family of God" or Nature of God).

    You said:

    "The bible says Jesus is God's son not God himself why would it lie?"

    You're right that the Bible says Jesus is God's Son, but it also says He is God explicitly:

    John 20:28-29 (New World Translation): In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”

    The Kingdom Interlinear Translation reads this way: "The Lord of me and the God of me!"

    So, my question to you is: Who was the God of Thomas, Jesus or The Father, or BOTH?

    Also, Jesus said that all Christians who believe the same thing Thomas did will be blessed.

    So, do you confess, along with the faithful Apostle Thomas, that Jesus is "The God of me"?

    Isaiah 9:6 (New World Translation): For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

    So, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the God of Thomas (and all future believers), and He is the God of the Jews.

    In the Bible, the phrase "Son of Man" means that you are truly a human being, human by nature. Well, couldn't the phrase "Son of God" mean that Jesus was truly God by Nature?

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    BurnTheShips,

    Just to clarify, I do not consider myself a "Fundamentalist" in the way that this word is used nowadays.

    For example, I am open-minded on God's method of creation (I am even open to the possibility of macro-evolution, if that's where the evidence points, and I am open to the possibility that mankind has existed for a lot longer than 6,000 years).

    I'm not dogmatic on that many things in the Bible.

    The one thing I am dogmatic on is that no one can be saved without knowing Jesus' true identity and trusting in Him (and His finished work on the Cross) ALONE for salvation.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    (How do you edit posts now?)

    Anyway, I meant to add to my last post that, I am even open to the idea that God can choose to save people who have never heard the Gospel or Jesus, since He knows all things and is the Judge of all, and knows all hearts and minds.

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