Noitsjustme,
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for your contribution here!
Gromitz,
I know what we have is limited. I look at scripture as a basic introduction to Jesus. Jesus did not leave the message to chance. Even if no one recorded his words…even if no church exisited…. He sent Holy Spirit. All that was needed was to seek Him….
In Romans 8:14, we understand where our direction comes from: “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
In John 14:26, Holy Spirit is our Counselor and teacher: “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
Romans 8:26In the same way, the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, since we do not know how to pray as we should. But the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words,
Amazing
Amazing said: One can find the worst evil among ALL Christian denominations and non-denominations, starting with the very first Christians, Apostles included. Judas betrayed Christ, after he was an Apostle. Peter denied Christ. Paul was a jerk, John and James were zealous firebrand idiots, Matthew was, and continued to be a Tax collector ... which in those days was not a nice trade. Any Jew who listened to Judas, might have gotten the impression that Jesus was a mere cult leader. Mary Magdalene was a whore. And Jesus was often accused of hanging out with the worst of humanity. And, today, one can find the same and worst in all denominations ... so, what is the point?
***
While the above is true, knowing Christ changed them. I doubt that Mary Magdelene continued to be a “whore” after coming to know Jesus. Christians don’t look to Judas as an example of what Jesus is all about. Jesus found many of His followers in unlikely places, .but He didn’t leave them there. People sin, make mistakes…and screw up in general…but the power of the Holy Spirit transforms lives Galatians 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things." One can recognize a Christian by the evidence of the Holy Spirit in their lives in spite of imperfections.
. And, today, one can find the same and worst in all denominations ... so, what is the point?
Well, the point is that when one puts their faith and trust in men, then one is nearly always disappointed. The principle is here… Psalms 14:6:3Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
I do not believe that Jesus’ purpose on earth was to set up another earthly organization. When He was crucified, the curtain in the Temple was torn in two (also see reference also below for Hebrews 10 th chapter.)
Matt 27:50-52 Then Jesus cried out with a loud voice again and died. Suddenly the curtain in the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth shook, rocks were split open, tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life”
The door was opened by His sacrifice for all to have a relationship with the God. Jesus is now the High Priest. We can now enter in by means of His blood. An earthly priesthood, like that of the Nation of Israel is no longer necessary.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here."
1 Cor:3:11 “ For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ”. The whole chapter shows how people were starting to look up to other people and taking the focus off of Christ even back then. It’s a human tendency… It is easier to believe in that which is seen rather than that which is unseen.
Jesus did not say that you would know His people by their history or their tradition or by how long they’ve lasted or by how many people belonged to a group (if it was about numbers, then you would have to admit, as the Vatican recently did, that Islam had surpassed the Catholic church in the number of members) Your checklist that you came up with to identify The Church is not the same as Jesus’ criteria.
What He did say was this: John 13: 34,35 “ I am giving you a new commandment to love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should loveone another. By this allmen will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Jesus said I will write my law upon your heart. Jesus fulfilled the Law…and placed it upon the hearts of His followers. The Law covenant was external, enforced from outside. The new Covenant is internal…it becomes an integral part of the Christian, and is administered by Holy Spirit. The 10 th Chapter of Hebrews explains this clearly….and when we get to verse 16"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts and will write them on their minds,"
And the chapter does talk about gathering together…verse 25 “We should not stop gathering together with other believers, as some of you are doing. Instead, we must continue to encourage each other even more as we see the day of the Lord coming”
We do need community and encouragement…. I don’t deny that…it’s why I do go to Church sometimes. Notice that at the time of the writing of this letter, there were some who had stopped gathering together… and yet, the letter is still addressed to them too as they are still considered Christian….
and note the mention of the curtain (as above noted) in verse 20
Therefore, my brothers, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain (that is, through his flesh), and since we have a great high priest over the household of God, let us continue to come near with sincere hearts in the full assurance that faith provides, because our hearts have been sprinkled clean from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water”
Jesus is as He said He is… the Way, The Truth, and The Life. Men will disappoint you…but Jesus never will. His Truth is simple...and He said we should become like children in order to receive it...
Coffee