Coffee,
Oddly enough, I have a few minutes on the PC before I disconnect the cable.
First, GromitSK: Your point about recognizing 'fruits' is good ... but it is admittedly based on Watchtower theology as they used it to draw a line of distinction between themselves and other Christians. They misuse the verse out of context. It we used that verse as they have, then I would abandon Christianity because the Apostle Peter lied and denied Jesus, the Apostle Paul was a Jerk, and other disciples seriously sinned. I need a separate post to discuss the fruitage as Christians in general understand it.
Coffee:
My point about Churches follows along this line: There are at least five categories of Christian development in history:
1. Apostolic Authority. This was the only Christian development for 1600 years, and is the prime teaching of Catholic and Orthodox for nearly 2,000 years.
2. Reformation: This phenomenon developed in the 16th century and never really reformed anything. Rather, we have three branches of the reformed movement: a. Those that retained much of Catholic liturgy, and have similar doctrine with respect to free will (Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, and their branches. b. Calvinist, which leaned to various flavors of predestination, and reduction of Apostolic authority (Presbyterian, Reformed Church, Puritans, Quakers, etc. c. Evangelical, which may or may not have predestination views, but follow the once saved, always saved theology, to which we find Baptists, Pentecostals, Four Square, Assembly of God, etc.
3. Restoration: These are groups that claim that the Church fell into general apostasy, especially by the 4th century, and the truth went into some form of darkness or hibernation until God raised up some moder day prophet (Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventists, Mormon, and others.
4. Sub-restoration: These are largely former members of the Restoration club, who have dropped the prophetic and controlling rules and policies, but who still hold that Christianity somehow became messed up, and they have opted for a simple variety, a personal control, yet may affiliate with one or more small denominations.
5. The Invisible Church Theology: I was in this camp for a many years. These folks have largely disconnected from all denominational-ism,but may go to any Church or none, even traditional denominations, but can never again commit to anything. They view the Church as this 'invisible' thing that Jesus founded on himself as the 'Rock' and has Christians from all denominations ... hence it is invisible as a singular structure ... it can never have the elements that the Apostles spoke about and directed, and it cannot have any clear identification that it is something that Jesus built ... that is the one they hold as the 'Rock' (Jesus) is its only foundation stone ... but any other structure in addition to Jesus is rejected.
It is this latter camp that you and Mouthy seem to me to be in ... correct me if I am not following your comments accurately.
What caused me to switch back to Roman Catholicism? Some have accused me, even rudely so, that people like me "need" something in my life .. I need to surrender my conscience to someone else and let them do my thinking for me ... and that I am blind to the sins of the Church, and thus have made a big mistake. However, this is not the case. The causal factor had nothing to do with surrender.
Events unfold: When I was conducting an in-depth study of the Holy Spirit and early Christian teaching a few years ago, in preparation for a talk at BRCI on the topic, I ended up reading every early Christian writer from the late 1st century to the 3rd century. As I read and studies Christian history, I could not help but discover how the Orthodox developed and how much like the Catholic Church they still are. I discovered how the Apostles established Holy Sees, Jerusalem (no longer exists) Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and Rome. The latter four survive to this day. When I revisited Jesus promise to build his Church, I recognized that whatever form it took on, it would have several important elements: a) it would have clear Apostolic roots as the twelve foundation stones in addition to Christ, the Chief cornerstone. b) It would have a recognizable structure like that we find described by the Apostle Paul, with Deacons, Priests (Elders), and Bishops (Episcopate). c) it would have real authority, as ones who have to render an accounting for the flock. d) Peter, in the context of what Jesus taught, made it clear that he would primarily build upon Peter and this became evident in telling Peter to feed his sheep, and that he would have the keys to the Kingdom of heaven and whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven. e) And that Christian development would be recognizable throughout history. And history shows that there was nothing besides the Church for 1600 years until the Reformation.
The dilemma: I had misgivings about returning to the Catholic Church for all the reasons you mention, and more. But, I came back to the point to ask myself, "By what standard do I choose anything?" If I claim Christ as my sole standard, then I have to accept what he accepted. Therefore, I cannot reject the Christian faith because some Christians seriously sin, including the Chief Apostle, St. Peter! Therefore, I cannot reject any Church solely on the basis that some of its leaders or members sin grievously - including the Jehovah's Witnesses. If I use just the Bible, then I have the problem of which translation, and how to interpret the Bible. I also have to consider that the Apostles talked about the 'Tradition' that they handed down as legitimate, and not to be rejected. The only Church that relies on 'tradition' is the Catholic and Orthodox faith - I am not speaking of the 'traditions of men' that Jesus rejected, but legitimate Apostolic tradition. And what of Apostolic authority? What kind of authority is it? It is sacramental authority to ordain Deacons, Priests (Elders) and Bishops (Episcopate). It is authority to perform binding marriages, baptism, blessings, liturgy, the concentrating the Eucharist, preaching the Gospel, and all that the Church was tasked to do ... something my 'invisible' Church or 'invisible' Christians that are spread all over cannot do, not with the fullness and completeness taught by the Apostles. There was just plain something wrong with it all.
Something new - History: As I engaged in study, and visited about every denomination, I decided to attend the Orthodox Church (Greek in this case) and lo and behold ... even though I do not speak Greek (though I have studied Latin and Greek) I followed the mass quite well. The Greek Orthodox ask that non-Orthodox not take communion ... so I respected this, and refrained. As I took it all in ... it was like being back in time about 50 years, attending an old Latin Rite Mass ... and I recalled something I have not enjoyed since my youth ... a spiritual peace that filled me completely. But, I was not about to rely on 'feel-good-ism' as anyone can have this feeling ... but rather, what I really took away was a sense of freedom combined with great history ... as though all the ages from the first century came crashing back in on my mind.
The Trump Card: Coincidently, Tom Cabeen was going through his conversion process to the Catholic Church ... unknown to me at first. But, for some reason I do not recall, he and I started talking ... and he commented that he could see my Catholic roots showing ... I presume from our conversations and the way I spoke about life and the Christian faith. Keeping in mind that I was taught for the first eight years of education by Dominicans Sisters. Tom, without realizing it, refreshed in me all the good and right things about the Catholic faith. The faith is not about being above sin ... it is a hospital for sinners to heal. Sometimes, even hospitals, though as clean as they try to be, spread germs and people can get sick working in hospitals trying to heal others ... likewise, the Church has had its share of sinners ... but it has been there since the beginning ... and for the vast majority of Christians it has been the historic source of Apostolic authority, the Sacraments, healing, love, and sound teaching. The Church, with all the faults of its people, and its sinful Priests, Bishops, and Popes (merely Bishops) its teaching and tradition has remained preserved both in Rome and in Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch. [Note: The blood relatives of Jesus Christ attend an Orthodox Church in Antioch and near Jerusalem to this day.] Yes, the early Church grew from a primitive form into full form by the second and third century ... and has remained the same, with very little change - it has been protected just as Jesus said ... and no faith can make that claim ... not even the 'invisible' Church that tries to say it is the pure form because it only has Jesus as its foundation Stone ... one cannot do that ... one must accept the full foundation that Jesus chose and built upon ... and if the Catholics/Orthodox faith cannot claim such a foundational heritage, then no Christian or groups of Christians can make that claim today ... there are no others that have roots going back to the Apostles.
What then about the 500 million non-Catholics? They are Christians, and no Catholic or Orthodox in their right mind would say otherwise. We cannot judge the faith of another. This is why the Orthodox and Catholic have been involved in ecumenical effort to unite the faith. I chose to return to the Catholic faith, not as a rejection of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists, Quakers, Anglicans, Mono-e-mono, or the 'Invisible' Church or others ... but rather, as an acceptance of the source and completeness of the foundation that Jesus built upon. And unless anyone can show me another foundation than that which Christ laid in the Apostles, and another Church which has such Apostolic roots ... then I will stay where I am ... and do so recognizing the faith of other Christians, and that people around me in all faiths will sin, seriously, including me ... but my responsibility it to Christ, to believe in and accept all of his promises ... including his promise to built the Church, a fully functioning Church with all of the elements present.
I will finish up my response to your earlier commentary after my new Internet service is reconnected by Thursday afternoon. IN the meantime, I need to now disconnect this PC and get to bed and start my long drive tomorrow.
Peace in Christ,
