Myths about the Church - to Coffee

by Amazing 66 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Coffee ... I will take some time to respond to your follow up comments. Thanks for the thoughtful reply ... and for clarifying your points so that I can better address them. My follow-up will be on this thread.

    VM44: The collar you refer to is a Roman collar, and is rooted in a fancier version in the 15th century (1400s). The Church simplified the fashion to its present form, and it stuck as a symbol of the clergy. It is used by a number of denominations, such as Anglican, but Catholic Priests are most known for it. It is taken from secular Roman society, much like a suit and tie today might be used in certain occasions, or even a tuxedo for weddings and other special events. It is not meant to parade around for show, but it is done as a sign of a person's office in the Church ... much for the same reason that a police officer, a soldier, or a doctor wears special uniforms and clothing so they can be called upon for service.

    Beksbks: You asked, "What is the basis for the church's stand on homosexuality? Masturbation? Birth control?" Some of it is tradition left over from what was continued on from Judaism, what was orally taught in the Church by the Bishops, and the writings of the early Church Fathers, including those who wrote books, some of which are now included in the Bible. I am not saying that the Bible was never used, but its development was an evolution, which making it the 'sola' standard was never the intent. To provide a more detailed statement, I would have to do some additional reading and find the sources ... or you can do it for yourself more quickly.

    However, here are some helpful links and short comments ... I have 'cherry-picked' the kinder comments, so that you will see that Catholics have a loving view toward Homosexuals ... but, at the same time there are moral concerns ... and if interested, you can go to the link and read more:

    Homosexuality: "Today, the Church... refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual "or a "homosexual," and insists that every person has a fundamental identity: the creature of God, and by grace, His child and heir to eternal life." SOURCE: http://couragerc.net/PIPElevenChurchTeachings.html

    Masturbation: I have found that the Church is generally fairly moderate on the topic ... but, nothing in my research turned up specific Church teaching ... most was advice on how to cope with one's sexuality. But, it is considered a sin ... yet, the Church does not seem to make a big deal out of it. If I find a decent source, I will post it for you on a new thread.

    Birth control: The Church has always condemned the use of contraception vs natural methods. http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

    Abortion: The Church has always condemned abortion based on tradition, history, the old law, early Christian teaching, and the Bible. See this link: http://www.catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp

    PS: I do not necessarily accept or understand everything the Church teaches. This is a blessing in being Catholic ... one can accept or not accept some position or policy, understand or not understand, agree or disagree ... and still be Catholic, never be shut out or shunned, and able to take communion if one's conscience is clear. A Priest will never refuse communion to a Catholic ... except in the most extreme and rare cases.

    Miraimondi:

    what an utterly disgusting OP. sorry to offend, but there is nothing redeeming at all about the religion you represent. everchanging goalposts at the whim of a select few, population control, oppresive non-natural restrictions. yeah, just another cult, man.

    What in the hell are you talking about, and to whom do you speak?

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    Amazing did you ever see the docummentary "The Vatican Millions"?
    It exposed them as having a Condom factory in their "wealth"
    I know it was MANY years ago. But do ask an OLDER Priest if HE remembers it????
    My only roll in telling you this. Is to point out ,the Vatican have also "covered up"
    as the Wt has also been guilty of. But a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus ,is one on one.
    no inbetween men!!!

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Mouthy,

    There is no comparison between the Watchtower Society and Rome. I, and a billion other Catholics acknowledge that Rome has made mistakes, and some serious ... whereas JWs cannot acknowledge mistakes. These can easily be found in Catholic history as well as secular. The Church does not cover up her mistakes. Your allegations that there is a comparison is little more then parroting what the Watchtower taught you, and then as you watch secular TV programs, you accept what they have told you, and then you continue on in the same opinion as taught by the Jehovah's Witness false religion that lied to you.

    As a Catholic, I have one mediator between me and God, and that is Jesus Christ my only Lord and Savior. But, by talking the way you do in rejecting the Church, you reject the very teaching of Christ who promised the Church and its success ... Jesus said that 'the Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail Over the Church' ... and throughout the NT the Apostles and other NT writers speak constantly of the Church and its role ... the early Church writers who fought against heresies likewise extolled the Church. So your claim to have your own little island of mono-e-mono with Jesus all by yourself is actually denying the teachings of the very Lord you claim to worship.

    As to your claim of not needing any 'in between' in your relationship with Christ ... let's test it. Can you answer the following:

    • Have you ever sat down in person with God the Father or Jesus Christ and conversed with them?
    • Or, is your relationship with God ... one-way ... you talk, God listens?
    • How did you learn about Jesus Christ - oral teaching or the Bible or both?
    • If oral teaching - who taught you? Were they not a form of a 'go between.'
    • If Bible teaching - who wrote the Bible ... was it not men?
    • Who compiled the Bible? Who decided which books go into the Bible? Who declared the Bible inspired?

    All of the above answers can be traced directly back to the Catholic Church. Whether you like it or not, you owe what you know about Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost to the Catholic Church, its priests and bishops who transmitted that knowledge over the centuries ... much of the same knowledge and information was transmitted by non-Catholics as well, after the Reformation in the 16th century onward. There is no Christian on earth today who is not so affected, or who is not directly or indirectly connected to Catholic theology and teaching.

    The Catholic Church is not a Mediator ... never was and never will be ... only Christ is our Mediator of the New Covenant! Your assertions are not correct, and based on either misinformation you have accepted from others, or from your own opinion built upon incorrect speculation and conjecture.

    The Church serves exactly the role that Jesus Christ our Lord assigned to her, nothing more or less. In fact, do you not recall Jesus' concern for the Church when he visited the seven local Churches in Asia Minor, sending his expressed concerns to the Priests (Presbyters or Elders) ... if our relationship is just mono-e-mono as you claim, then why would Jesus ever bother with such an important Revelation. The Church was in trouble, and all except one Church received strong counsel. So, right from the beginning the Church made errors ... so what?

    If your personal private theology is correct, then Jesus would have only sent his Revelation to individuals ... or personally visited mono-e-mono each individual Christian ... and he would do that today as well ... but he does not. And unless you have had personal conversational exchange, mono-e-mono with God the Father or our Lord Jesus Christs or the Holy Spirit, then ALL of your knowledge and alleged relationship is secondary, handed down to you by men, which ultimately came from the Catholic Church ... it is historical fact ... there is no denying it ... and furthermore, whether anyone likes it or not ... the Catholic Church is here to stay. And that is something the Watchtower false religion can never claim or will ever have.

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black

    Wow, Amazing, I am shocked by your tone to Mouthy. She was a Catholic and was hurt by the Catholic Church, and you speak to her very disrespectfully, as if she doesn't know what she herself experienced. She is a lovely person, and a strong Christian. I have met her on several occasions. I think the attitude you display here in responding to someone who was hurt by the Church says a lot.

    She did not deserve that.

    Coffee

    edited to add:

    "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" (Matthew 22:36 NIV). Jesus replied, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37-40 NIV).

  • mouthy
  • Have you ever sat down in person with God the Father or Jesus Christ and conversed with them?
  • I converse with Jesus so much daily...I also feel the Holy Spirit guides ,leads, & directs me.
  • Or, is your relationship with God ... one-way ...you talk, God listens?
    I feel he listens I do talk,ask, & believe me,I get answers,if not that day, year, or sometime later.
  • How did you learn about Jesus Christ -oral teaching or the Bible or both?
  • I learned about Jesus from my Mother, who was a religous fanatic,went into mental hospitals often.
    I didnt KNOW him then but I heard about him OFTEN!!!!
  • If oral teaching - who taught you?Jehovahs Witnesses made me believe he was real.
    Were they not a form of a 'go between.' Unfortunatly YES!!!!!But the HOLY SPIRIT came to TEACH me the REAL truth.
  • If Bible teaching - who wrote the Bible ... was it not men?
  • I have said many times on here,I do not believe ALL in the Bible. I SEE with my eyes Creation
  • in the wrtings of Jesus HE said he created. I believe that
  • Who compiled the Bible?MEN!!!! Who decided which books go into the Bible?MEN!!!
    Who declared the Bible inspired ?MEN!!!!!
    I do not state I know all about GOD!!! All I know I have FAITH in the fact he is with me .
    I do believe it is a gift.
  • Does that answer your Question. ? Did you see the Vatican Millions was MY question????
  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    I think that Amazing spoke very "strongly" to Mouthy, to be sure. But I do not think it was disrespectful. And it was less in kind than what Mouthy has expressed. I understand that she has had bad experiences, and I am sorry for her, as well as being sorry for those that treated her and hers so badly, but where has Amazing been disrespectful to her?

    BTS

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    Thanks Coffee for your concern. But I am not at all hurt by Amazing..
    I have met him many times he is a very lovable Brother.
    I understand his motive ...He would love me to see Faith HIS way...
    But I have been there done that. .
    I can only share the Faith I have. Many Christians say I am wrong
    But I can only be true to myself in my beliefs.otherwise I would really be a hypocrite

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black

    It is his tone, BTS. You can feel the anger and judgmentalism in his words. Mouthy is in her 80s. She is a strong Christian. He should take into account what the Church has done to her and treat her with love. If his treatment of Mouthy is indicative of how the Church treats those whom it has hurt, then he is proving the myths he is trying to disprove here.

    Coffee

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Maybe Amazing is a little bit frustrated.

    Can you blame him after looking at some of the comments on Min's thread and this one?

    And no, I don't mean your posts, Coffee.

    BTS

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black

    Amazing,

    In your message to Mouthy above, you said: "The Church does not cover up her mistakes."

    I don't know how you can say that. For decades the Catholic Church moved pedophile priests around from parish to parish in an effort to hide thier sins. It was not until some victims finally came forward and the media got hold of it that they could no longer keep this huge problem hidden. I know a girl who was molested by a priest. She is still in therapy after a decade...has all kinds of problems. They tried to keep her quiet. Here in Boston the pedophile priest story was on the news daily for months, and the Catholic Church here fought tooth and nail to keep the records private.

    I could answer the questions you asked Mouthy, as well as comment on the rest of the it, but I'm not going to add fuel to the fire.

    Coffee

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