Myths about the Church - to Coffee

by Amazing 66 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  BurnTheShips

  I'd love to give you a hug Mouthy. Can you be my Grandma?

  BTS
• 

  mouthy

  Can you be my Grandma?

  As Of this moment I am now BTS Granny.
  & if he dont behave I will send him to his room.
• 

  mouthy

  O.K Granny's gonna talk to Jesus
  Then she is gonna cruel in bed

  Nightie night.To all
• 

  Amazing

  Mouthy,

  Thanks for stating that nothing I said hurt you. I understand that you were hurt by individuals in the Church, priests included. Your hurt is real, and the things you have described are important and those responsible should not be excused ... the individuals responsible have a heavy burden to bare in that respect. As to your question about the $millions made from the sale or manufacture of condoms, I do not have any facts, pro or con, or the TV show you describe, to discuss it fairly. However, the Church is not mistake free in these matters. Unlike the Watchtower Society, she does not claim to be free of all mistakes ... anymore than the seven Churches mentioned in Asia Minor were when Christ counseled them through the Apostle John. Pope John Paul II, for example, apologized on behalf of the Church for the way that the Church failed to respond properly during the holocaust in the 1930s and 1940s. More than one Pope has apologized to the Eastern Orthodox Church for the Great Schism and the hurt done to them in the past. I do need to get to bed soon, as I have to finish up my final packing starting tomorrow for my move back to Illinois ... so I will take a break for a few days until my new Internet service is hooked up ... then I will return to finish up my exchange with Coffee ... then go back into hibernation for a time. Remember that I truly appreciate you, and would never knowingly say anything disrespectful to you.

  Coffee,

  In your message to Mouthy above, you said: "The Church does not cover up her mistakes." I don't know how you can say that. For decades the Catholic Church moved pedophile priests around from parish to parish in an effort to hide thier sins. It was not until some victims finally came forward and the media got hold of it that they could no longer keep this huge problem hidden. I know a girl who was molested by a priest. She is still in therapy after a decade...has all kinds of problems. They tried to keep her quiet. Here in Boston the pedophile priest story was on the news daily for months, and the Catholic Church here fought tooth and nail to keep the records private.

  Your point is well taken. Some Diocesan Bishops and Cardinals did cover this problem up ... and it caught up with them. But, this problem was not covered up by the Church as a whole. Unlike the JWs who are placed under a silence by the Elders, Catholic feel quite open and free to discuss the issue, and take legal action where appropriate. I have commented before that in those cases, the action was appropriate and deserved. The Church in some regions paid huge settlements ... and unlike the Watchtower Society, which settled with victims on condition of not discussing it, the Church in those areas openly and publicly apologized, admitted their wrong, and made serious changes to prevent future problems (including criminal background checks on those who would serve as Priests and Deacons. During the wrong, yes there was cover up, but upon dealing with it, the cover up in those areas ended. The Church in Rome is not at all supportive of the cover-ups that took place. Unlike the Watchtower Society, which is centrally controlled, the Catholic Church, the Pope, does not control the local Bishops, but rather, the local Bishop is the authority in the Catholic Church ... and, because some Bishops lost their Christian perspective, they made tragic errors. Whereas the Watchtower Society is still living in denial ... that is the difference I was speaking to, and that is the way I believe that a comparison between the two religions is not appropriate.

  Dealing with the molesters: Please do not forget that I spent no small amount of time testifying on behalf of victims in the JW cases. I provided information so that legal experts could pursue action against the responsible parties including the Watchtower Society ... and if I were in the same position to do so with a Catholic Diocese or Church, I would do the same. I have no use for such things going on in any Church. I likewise was involved in a situation where a Baptist minister was caught molesting children in a church, and made it very clear that if the church Elders did not go to the authorities in 24 hours, I was going to do it for them ... I made it clear that I would not tolerate this issue with the JWs, and I will never sit by and tolerate it from any religious body.

  Having said all of that ... I do not judge or condemn every Jehovah's Witness, nor their faith in their religion. I do not condemn every Baptist, or minister or those who have their faith through those venues ... and similarly, I do not judge or condemn 1.5 billion Catholics, nor every priest, bishop, or the Pope. For the judgment that we render to others, will be the judgment rendered to us in return ... we are to forgive as we have been forgiven, as Jesus stated in the Lord's Prayer or the Our Father prayer.

  I respect and care about Mouthy ... I have met her on one or two occasions at BRCI, as well as interactedf with her a number of times on this forum and in email ... and after examining my comments above, I see nothing that is disrespectful. Mouthy herself says things strongly, adn she makes it clear that she is this way ... and that is her right ... and sometimes, I feel that others should give me some latitude to equally express myself in clear and decisive terms.

  I could answer the questions you asked Mouthy, as well as comment on the rest of the it, but I'm not going to add fuel to the fire.

  I appreciate that, and I am sure you could provide a well thought out answer ... I fear no fuel to the fire from you or Mouthy. I do need to do other things over the next two or three days ... and my Internet service will be down until it is reconnected on Thursday ... so maybe we all can take a break, and try again later. Mouthy did a nice job of responding for herself ... and I am satisfied with that as far as it goes. I understand the 'mono-e-mono' approach to Christianity, as I have lived by and promoted the same for myself for many years after leaving the JWs. My return to the Catholic Church is not because I condone wrong doing, nor because I need some 'go between' or because I don't recognize the Christian faith of non-Catholics. Rather, it has been part of my personal growth to return to my roots, and start the road once again that I was on before the JWs came into my life. I do not preach or seek converts ... I am not an evangelist or preacher. My only goal herein is to try and clear up some of the hurtful myths that some believe for whatever reason ... and by so doing, to improve understanding, tolerance, and love among all Christians who participate. That is all, nothing more and nothing less.

  The last thought is that the only frustration I feel is when the written word (posts) cause such negative reactions at times ... as the written word is one dimensional, and we all (me included) need to cut some slack to one another, and try to remember that we cannot see the body language or hear the voice 'tone' of the author of a post ... we are cut off from normal communication input that we enjoy in person ... and if we do that, we begin to have fewer misunderstandings. And if anything I have written in this post seems negative to you or Mouthy, please reread it in the light of the most positive caring terms, as that is how I mean it ... and I think that since you have met me in person, that you can recall how I am as a person, and how I would say something were we talking in person.

  May you and Mouthy have peace in Christ,

  Jim
• 

  I quit!

  We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

  So when I do go to a Catholic church, I don’t say that line.

  Catholic means universal. It doesn't mean Roman Catholic. Think of it as being inclusive of all Christians and then maybe it won't bother you to repeat it. We recite this all the time at the church I go to with the understanding includes all of those who have faith in Christ not just those we hang out with and agree with us.
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  middleman

  The RCC is just another works based system using visuals as an appearance of consecrated holiness. The pope is NOT the vicar of Christ, no I will not kiss his ring, nor can he forgive my sins, I'm not looking forward to pugatory but heaven, no my prayers (or money) won't help my relatives "get out" of purgatory, no saint has ever heard my prayers and no Jesus is not too busy to need "helpers", there is no Universal church but the bride of Christ, I will not look at "holy" tradition as equal to the Bible, but YES I will get out of her as Revelation proclaims, a church that started with blood guilt (Edict of Toleration ended bad to those-especially Jews-with the wrong version/belief of the "universal church" or gospel), has no legs to stand on...like a one legged man at a butt kickin...
• 

  yesidid

  The book "Hitler's Pope" written by a Catholic academic, is a very interesting read.

  It gives conclusive proof, from Vatican archives, that, had Pope Pious and the Catholic Church not supported

  Hitler, there would have been no second world war.
• 

  Satanus

  Mouthy

  It's a message, not so much for you, as for some of your fans, who are getting bent out of shape in this discussion.

  S
• 

  BurnTheShips

  The book "Hitler's Pope" written by a Catholic academic, is a very interesting read.

  It gives conclusive proof, from Vatican archives, that, had Pope Pious and the Catholic Church not supported

  Hitler, there would have been no second world war.

  "Hitler's Pope" is a myth. The author himself has printed a retraction for this book.

  Also, here is a refutation to the book written by Rabbi Dalin:

  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895260344/davekopel-20/

  BTS
• 

  coffee_black

  Amazing,

  Just a couple of things.

  Regarding the Church as a whole not covering up.. At the height of the scandal here in Boston, Cardinal Law was suddenly called to Rome at the very time that he was going to be called to testify in Court. He has never come back. Not sure what you would call that. The scandal was wide spread...in the US and abroad, not just a few isolated cases. It took a very long time for the Church to acknowledge the problem, and many millions of dollars to settle the lawsuits.

  I know of your efforts in regards to bringing pedophiles to justice. That is why I am puzzled by your quick defense of the Catholic Church in this regard. They made changes only when it seemed they had no choice.

  In regards to your message to Mouthy… What bothered me most about it was the overall message which seemed to say: Just who do you think you are? Don’t you know that you owe your relationship with Jesus and everything you know about him to the Catholic Church?

  First, I can’t answer for Mouthy, so I will answer for me. I do not credit the Catholic church for my having a relationship with Jesus. All of the Credit goes to Christ. As He said, " I can make the very stones cry out". It is Jesus’ message, and he has provided the means for us to receive it. Who gave the message to Paul on the road to Damascus? Do you not think that Jesus can find a way to reach every lost sheep, with or without a church?

  I find that concept strikingly similar to the jw who asks “Well, just where did you get your Bible knowledge from anyway”?

  Satanus,

  I guess you are referring to me. I am not Mouthy’s fan, I am her friend, and I am not bent out of shape. I am just calling it as I see it. Relax, it’s all good.

  Now I have to go to work…

  Coffee

  .