Is Jesus Jehovah?

by lostsheep82 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  reniaa

  hi quietly leaving sorry I was not clearer and missed your question, I was not very ably trying to show Lord is just a word that used for both Jehovah and Jesus but they still remain separate and Jesus cannot be said to be God because of this reason, many times I've seen lists of where god and Jesus being called the same thing is used as proof when it is not. King is a better example, but 'image describes how their relationship actually is....the bible clearly defines Jesus as the image of god like man is also difined as God's image since image is a reflection, a representative, a copy of the original , niether man or Jesus are God they are just like him but it is this likeness/similarity that has confused people into forming the believe Jesus is god but I think the image scriptures as below directly refute it.

  2 Corinthians 4:4
  The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

  Colossians 1:15
  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

  Genesis 1:27
  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
• 

  possible-san

  Leolaia.

  possible-san....My question wasn't if "I am" has a symbolic meaning, it was where in his letters "the Apostle Paul had mentioned Jesus as 'I am' ". Paul does not use this phrase AFAIK.

  Probably I think that I have given the hint for understanding to you kindly.

  And probably in the current context in this topic, the topic about a symbolic interpretation is not suitable.

  I have my forum, and if you wish, I will teach there.
  But it is if you hope to understand it truly.

  Although I admire your knowledge, you say it "AFAIK" because your knowledge is limited.

  possible
  http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/
• 

  passwordprotected

  Isaiah 43: I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

  Titus 1:4...May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

  How can there be no saviour besides Jehovah, yet the inspired word the Bible attribute the status of Saviour to Jesus Christ (interestingly Titus 1:4 is not listed in the NWT reference Bible's index under the listing for 'savior'). Surely in order for Jesus to be the Saviour he'd also need to be Jehovah?

  Reniaa says;

  We have early christian sources but isn't it true that the 'winner writes history' and christianity was very thorough in getting rid of all documents and people that were anti-trinitarinism hense why there is not much info on arianism?

  This sounds eerily similar to the WTS habit of re-writing history, disfellowshipping/silencing those who point out their historical errors, getting rid of quotes in magazines and book, getting rid of Governing Body members who raise doctrinal issues etc etc.
• 

  quietlyleaving

  reniaa

  hi quietly leaving sorry I was not clearer and missed your question, I was not very ably trying to show Lord is just a word that used for both Jehovah and Jesus but they still remain separate and Jesus cannot be said to be God because of this reason, many times I've seen lists of where god and Jesus being called the same thing is used as proof when it is not. King is a better example, but 'image describes how their relationship actually is....the bible clearly defines Jesus as the image of god like man is also difined as God's image since image is a reflection, a representative, a copy of the original , niether man or Jesus are God they are just like him but it is this likeness/similarity that has confused people into forming the believe Jesus is god but I think the image scriptures as below directly refute it. 2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

  bear with me Reniaa, my question is -how can we say that humans and jesus are copies, reflections of the original (God) when he is invisible?
• 

  Chalam

  Hi,

  I was wondering what you thought about this verse then?

  Revelation 22:3-4 (New International Version)

  3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

  Or this?

  Psalm 11:7 (New International Version)

  7 For the LORD is righteous,
  he loves justice;
  upright men will see his face.

  Or this?

  1 John 3:2 (English Standard Version)

  2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

  So who did Moses see in these verses?

  Exodus 33:19-23 (New International Version)

  19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

  21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  cameo-d

  20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

  21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

  This is a wishy-washy god. Someone did see god. His name means I have seen god and still live, or 'seen god and my life was spared'...something like that. Who was that?
• 

  reniaa

  hi password you are going to have to provide prove of Jw's rewriting history as far as I have researched those that have wanted on leaving or being DF-d to be outspoken have been very vocal and not been stopped aka franz. And they have a very open history but they do not dwell on it or the people involved so no adulation of former leaders arrises.

  now back to your bible absolute of 'only God can be saviour', this is the same principle as who builds a house? the building firm Owner who employs the builder and can say he built it or the builder himself? Or both, Jesus saved us but could he have saved us if God himself hadn't given up his 'only begotten son' to die for us? which leads me neatly to another bible absolute 'God cannot die' jesus died therefore he cannot be god!

  the bible explains the way Jesus is from his father and so can be fulfillment of what Jehovah does since he has his 'Authority'

  1 Corinthians 8:6
  yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

  Jesus is the 'through' the link between us and God.

  this is a lovely scripture that explains completely how Jesus and Jehovah interact in a way all the pages of rhetoric of 3 = 1 cannot. arguably this is one of my favourite scriptures.
• 

  reniaa

  bear with me Reniaa, my question is -how can we say that humans and jesus are copies, reflections of the original (God) when he is invisible?

  Erm how can I answer this question? It is one for God! he says in his word we are his image and Jesus is his image, not me :S you are looking at it on a literal he muxt be visiable for us to be a copy and so judging by human standards, what do I think if I was to speculate? I would say it had something to do with our conscousness awareness of right and wrong (is there a scripture on this somewhere?) that takes us beyond instinct-led animals and our ability to create but it is speculation :) Lol you'll have to ask Jesus this when next you meet but it is a good question, one I wouldn't mind the answer to either.

  If someone has a scripture that may shed light on it I wouldn't mind a quote?
• 

  Chalam

  Hello again,

  Back to the thread question, try these verses.

  Revelation 1:8 (New International Version)

  8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

  Revelation 22:12-13 (New International Version)

  12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

  Who's that then?

  16 "I, Jesus..."

  Still not sure?

  Isaiah 44:6 (New International Version)

  The LORD, Not Idols

  6 "This is what the LORD says—
  Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
  I am the first and I am the last;
  apart from me there is no God. All the best, Stephen
• 

  reniaa

  hi there chalam/stephen

  rev is very simbolic probs not a good idea to take it in aliteral sense or you may end up tattooing your YHVH on your forehead not something I'd recommend lol

  Seriously though the second two scriptures are another reason why we know Jesus and Jehovah are separate and Jesus isn't God. the oft quoted scripture taken out of context by trinitarians is a good way to see how we can see God but not actually see him. I'll have to quote a chunk to get the full context.

  John 14: 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know [ b ] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

  8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

  9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it

  15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be [ c ] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

  a lot of points but really showing that we see God through Jesus and we to can be in God as Jesus is.

  I find if you look, the bible explains itself very well especially in the context not usually shown. (as a side note here Jesus is showing even when he goes to heaven he does things to bring Glory to the father not himself)