Is there a doctor in the house? Body builder?

by FiveShadows 46 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Vinny

  Recovering says:.."My argument is not one of a personal nature Vinny. I am just very concerned with the information you are disseminating. I am sure you really think that what you have suggested and claimed is correct. < Sigh> you are convinced and no matter what proof I provide you are not going to accept it it seems. I know for a fact that you are mistaken in what you claim . My fear is twofold. 1 The most important is that some one will get sick following your advice. 2 If others see us supporting a very publically discredited charlatan theories , they may be less inclined to believe what we have to say about the witnesses."

  **** Don't do the cleanse then.

  Nobody is putting a gun to anybody's head and saying you must do this liver cleanse.

  But it has worked for many people that have actually tried it, including me.

  It is ranked number one when anybody does a Google search for liver cleanses.

  There are thousands of photos showing what comes out when people do this cleanse. Just take a LOOK:

  http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=Liver%20cleanse&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

  Here is a photo which shows almostr exactly what came out of me:

  http://gallstoneflush.com/images/gallstones1.jpg

  You have failed to list one reason WHY this is a bad and dangerous cleanse to take. You have ignored the testimony of thousands of people that have done this with nothing but success and no complications or death.

  It has worked, it continues to work, and I will continue to suggest that people who are interested in it check it out.

  If you don't like it, then go cry with Cameo.
• 

  recovering

  You have failed to list one reason WHY this is a bad and dangerous cleanse to take. You have ignored the testimony of thousands of people that have done this with nothing but success and no complications or death

  Please tell me how you know that there have been no complications or death resulting from this treatment ?

  No medical treatment is 100 % safe. Even the simple act of taking a baby aspirin can risk mortality in those that are allergic or have coagulapathies.For you to claim this further demonstrates that you are being either disingenuous or at best ill informed.

  Since you insist I will list possible dangers.

  1

  Part of the liver cleanse you advocate includes the intake of 3/4 to full cup of olive oil (oil is a fat) If you indeed have gallstones an acute gallstone attack may occur or be made worse after you eat high-fat foods (for example ingesting oil). What are some of the dangers of an acute gall stone attack?

  Blockage of the common bile duct. In some cases, gallstones can block the ducts that lead from your gallbladder, liver or pancreas to your small intestine. The signs and symptoms of common bile duct obstruction include yellowing of the whites of the eyes and skin (jaundice), dark urine, and pain in the upper abdomen. If you also have fever and chills, you may have an underlying complication such as an inflamed gallbladder (cholecystitis) or an infection in your bile duct (cholangitis).

  Inflammation of the pancreas. An obstruction in the common bile duct near the junction with the pancreatic duct can also cause a blockage in the pancreatic duct or inflammation of the pancreas (acute pancreatitis). In many people the common duct and the pancreatic duct empty into the duodenum at a common opening.

  Pancreatitis is likely to cause an intense, constant pain in your upper abdomen that may radiate to your back or chest. The pain is usually worse when you lie flat and better when you sit up or bend forward. You may not be able to pass gas, and your abdomen may be tender and distended. Sometimes, you may also have nausea, vomiting and fever. In mild cases, symptoms usually subside within a few days to a week, but severe acute pancreatitis can be life-threatening.

  2

  There is also the the possible issues associated with the ingestion of Epson salt. Epson salt is the chemical Magnesium sulfate . Magnesium sulfate should be given very cautiously due to the risk of serious impairment of renal function since it is excreted almost entirely by the kidneys

  There is also danger of drug interactions. When barbiturates, narcotics, or other hypnotics (or systemic anesthetics) are to be given in conjunction with magnesium sulfate (Epson salt), their dosage should be adjusted with caution because of the additive central depressive effects of magnesium.

  Some other possible negative side effects of Magnesium sulfate ingestion include due to Hypermagnesemia which may be caused by ingestion of magnesium-containing substances such as vitamins, antacids, or cathartics (magnesium sulfate /Epson salt) by patients with chronic renal failure.

  Nausea

  Vomiting

  Skin flushing

  Weakness

  Lightheadedness

  Disappearance of deep tendon reflexes

  Muscle weakness

  Serum magnesium levels of 5.0-6.0 mEq/L are related to the following:

  Hypotension

  Vasodilatation

  Arrhythmia, including atrial fibrillation

  Intraventricular conduction delay

  Flaccid skeletal muscle paralysis

  Asystole

  Heart block

  Ventilatory failure

  Stupor or coma

  Death

  Elevated levels of magnesium also are associated with the following:

  Delayed thrombin formation

  Platelet clumping

  http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/766604-overview
• 

  Vinny

  This is a joke, right?

  You list "blockage of the bilary ducts" as well as pancreatitis (due to this same "blockage of the bilary ducts"), as life threatening risks. Yet, you ignore the fact that the Epsom Salts taken before the olive oil OPENS UP THOSE BILARY DUCTS so that these very large stones that you say are ((("found throughout your body"))) can pass through and OUT OF YOUR BODY.

  Just like you see HERE:

  http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=gallstones&spell=1

  Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

  Now, smart guy, tell us just HOW YOU SUGGEST getting all those stones, that you say are inside your body and that you say can "block the bile ducts and even cause pancreatitis", OUT OF YOUR BODY?

  Please tell us.

  You either leave them in your body, so they can continue to slow you down, wreak havoc and cause other complications/problems/issues.

  Or, when they get really bad, guess what else you can do? Good ole SURGERY! Now that sounds like a plan.

  Or, how about this idea: Why not simply FLUSH all those stones found throughout the liver and gall bladder (that you say "can block the bilary tubes and cause pancreatitis and other problems"), OUT OF YOUR BODY with a proven effective LIVER CLEANSE?

  Now THAT'S a concept, eh?

  But then you say the epsom salts themselves (that open up those bilary tubes and allow flushing of all those stones that you say can block the liver, gall bladder, cause pancreatitis, jaundice, fever, vomiting etc etc) can also cause negative side effects.

  Yet those epsom salts are why ALL THOSE STONES CAN GET FLUSHED OUT OF THE BODY!!!!

  I guess we can always go for the SURGERY ROUTE and all the side effects that comes with that then. What do you think of that?

  Or, better yet, let's just LEAVE ALL THOSE STONES IN THE BODY. There ya go. No side effects that way at all. How bout that!

  And it's funny, how nobody that I know from my family and friends of had any negative side effects from drinking those epsom salts aside for the bad taste.

  And then low and behold ALL THOSE STONES CAME RIGHT ON OUT OF OUR BODIES!

  Anytime I see a tv commercial for over the counter meds, you get to hear ALL THOSE POSSIBLE SIDE EFFECTS TOO. (Sometimes MOST of the commercial is about all those 'possible side effects'.

  But guess what? People take those meds anyway because the benefits often outweigh the exaggerated side effects.

  So if there are some unpleasant side effects from removing hundreds to THOUSANDS of those stones and other unhealthy things from your body, most folks would say well, I guess it was worth it. Especially if the quality of life after cleansing and after removing all that bad stuff (that you say can block bilary tubes/ liver/gall bladder/cause pancreatitis/jaundice/ Etc), is always so much better.

  Or, just leave them all in you then. I guess that's what folks like Cameo and Recovering would suggest.

  Or, let's just wait until it's so bad the good ole surgeon gets to have a shot at you. Bet they like that idea even more.

  Vinny

  ttp://www.ener-chi.com/liver.htm

  Reaping the benefits

  Anyone suffering any of the following symptoms or similar ones is likely to have hundreds, if not thousands, of gallstones blocking the bile ducts of the liver:

  Food cravings, diarrhea, constipation, hernia, flatulence, haemorrhoids, breathing difficulties, hepatitis and other types of infection, high cholesterol, pancreatitis, heart disease, brain disorders, duodenal ulcers, nausea and vomiting, a "bilious" or angry personality, depression, impotence and other sexual problems, prostate diseases, urinary problems, hormonal imbalances, PMT and menopausal symptoms, problems with vision, puffy eyes, all skin disorders, liver spots especially on the back of the hands and facial area, excessive weight or wasting, strong shoulder and back pain, a pain at the top of the shoulder blade, frozen shoulder, stiff neck, dark color under the eyes, coated tongue, scoliosis, gout, asthma, headaches and migraines, tooth and gum problems, yellowness of the eyes and skin, sciatica, numbness and paralysis of legs, joint diseases, osteoporosis, obesity, chronic fatigue, kidney diseases, cancer, MS, ME, cold extremities, excessive heat and perspiration in the upper part of the body, very greasy hair, to name some.

  By removing the stones through a series of liver cleanses (usually six to eight are sufficient to fully restore liver performance), and consequently maintaining a reasonably healthy diet and lifestyle, the liver returns to its natural efficiency, and most, if not all, symptoms of discomfort begin to subside. Energy and well-being notably increase with each cleanse.

  Sweeping the liver clean eliminates thousands of bits of poisonous substances that have helped form the stones and block thousands of liver bile ducts. Cleansing the liver bile ducts from gallstones may indeed be one of the most important and powerful procedures around to dramatically improve one's health and raise the body's vibration. By re-opening the bile ducts, the body's energy circuits becomes restored and healing can take place on all levels of body, mind and spirit.
• 

  recovering

  I have had enough of you twisting of what I said and making nonsensical arguments and claims Vinny.

  1 I never said that stones are found are found through out the body. What I said was:" In some cases, gallstones can block the ducts that lead from your gallbladder, liver or pancreas to your small intestine. “And that “If you indeed have gallstones an acute gallstone attack may occur or be made worse after you eat high-fat foods (for example ingesting oil). " What I was addressing is the danger that your cleansing treatment presents to those unfortunate enough to have gallstones. Not every one has this malady.

  2 Epson salts do not open the biliary ducts. Epson salt (Magnesium sulfate) does have medical uses. In its prescription form it is used to halt premature labor. If it was effective in the treatment of gallstones don't you think the drug companies would be marketing it as such? After all the pharmaceutical companies are all about turning a profit.

  3 By the way, there are other options for dealing with gallstones besides surgery. Your physician is the one who is best equipped whether surgery, or one of the following alternatives is your best option;

  Bile salt tablets.

  Your doctor may have you take the medication ursodiol (Actigall), which dissolves cholesterol stones over a period of time. The treatment works best on small cholesterol stones, but is only effective about 50 percent of the time. To prevent a recurrence, most people need to take the medication for years or longer.

  Sound wave therapy (extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy).

  This treatment uses high-frequency sound waves to break up gallstones. You then take ursodiol tablets to dissolve the fragments. Sound wave therapy is appropriate for only a small percentage of people with gallstones. If you have more than one stone, your stone is large, or you have acute cholecystitis or cholangitis, you're probably not a good candidate for this treatment. And, as with other nonsurgical therapies, your gallstones are likely to return unless you take ursodiol indefinitely.

  Percutaneous electrohydraulic lithotripsy.

  This procedure relies on a catheter that's inserted into the gallbladder several weeks prior to the treatment. A small probe is inserted into the catheter to deliver short bursts of energy to break up the stones. This is the only nonsurgical treatment option that can be used on any type of gallstone, including pigment stones. Because this procedure is time-consuming and isn't widely available, it's usually considered only for people with a high risk of surgical complications, such as people with heart disease.

  Topical gallstone dissolution

  . In this procedure, a small catheter is inserted into the gallbladder. A solution that dissolves cholesterol gallstones is then delivered through the catheter into the gallbladder over a several hour period. This option has lower recurrence rates than medication, but it's still considered experimental and isn't widely available.

  4 You are very cavalier in offering medical advice Vinny. You refuse to even accept the possibility what you are advocating could be dangerous. It is sad that the evidence that you use all comes from websites that have a vested financial interest in selling this so called Miracle cure. (Miracle cure is my term for anything that claims to cure everything under the sun.) The shear scope of what the cleanse professes to cure should be a tip of to you that the climes are false

  Food cravings, diarrhea, constipation, hernia, flatulence, hemorrhoids, breathing difficulties, hepatitis and other types of infection, high cholesterol, pancreatitis, heart disease, brain disorders, duodenal ulcers, nausea and vomiting, a "bilious" or angry personality, depression, impotence and other sexual problems, prostate diseases, urinary problems, hormonal imbalances, PMT and menopausal symptoms, problems with vision, puffy eyes, all skin disorders, liver spots especially on the back of the hands and facial area, excessive weight or wasting, strong shoulder and back pain, a pain at the top of the shoulder blade, frozen shoulder, stiff neck, dark color under the eyes, coated tongue, scoliosis, gout, asthma, headaches and migraines, tooth and gum problems, yellowness of the eyes and skin, sciatica, numbness and paralysis of legs, joint diseases, osteoporosis, obesity, chronic fatigue, kidney diseases, cancer, MS, ME, cold extremities, excessive heat and perspiration in the upper part of the body, very greasy hair, to name some.

  If you can find me an unbiased scientific study supporting all these wild claims I will publically apologize to you right here on this forum. If you can not I suggest you stop making these claims

  By the way unbiased means independent review and study by an accredited institution i.e. university, medical journal, FDA report
• 

  Vinny

  Not a single ONE of your posted, "alternative therapies", is without side-effects or certain risks.

  Not a single ONE of your posted, "alternative therapies", removes hundreds to thousands of gallstones at one time as does the liver cleanse I posted a link to. And I would know since In have done this cleanse twice.

  Face it Recovering, you are just blowing smoke.

  By doing the Liver Cleansing Program, your body eliminates numerous stones and toxins at one time. Your alternative therapies by contrast don't do SQUAT.

  I have seen the evidence with my own eyes from my own body.

  I have seen the many testimonies of numerous people, claiming the very same things, with my own eyes.

  I have seen the Photos of numerous other people many times. http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=gallstones&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

  You cannot deny it works, Recovering. Facts, photos and testimonies REFUTE any claims to the contrary.

  Which is why so many people have used it, and which is why it is the number one website, by Google, for Liver Cleanse in the world.

  All you can do now is say it's dangerous. Though the evidence and personal testimony once again proves otherwise. CONCLUSIVELY.

  Where are the people who've been harmed by this cleanse, Recovering? Where are the people that have died from this cleanse, Recovering?

  There are certain risks with ANY procedure. People literally die at times from bypass surgery. There are legitimate risks involved, including dying, as you must know. Yet most people have that surgery anyway. Benefits outweigh the risks. There are risks with knee surgery. My son had his ACL replaced three years ago. He developed a serious staph infection from that surgery itself in his knee. He was on intravenous antibiotics for two months and in bed for most of that time. They had to take out the graft and do it all over again several months later.

  And that second graft did not take either. Third time worked. Like I say, risks are sometimes involved with most anything we do, but for the most part people have the surgeries anyway.

  Why so? Because the benefits often far outweigh those risks.

  The risks involved with the liver cleanse are negligible . And through each minimum-risk liver cleanse you can remove hundreds to thousands of gallstones and other toxic substances from your body.

  Getting rid of so many stones and other bad news toxins from your body is a good thing .

  I have not seen ANY medical procedure, anywhere at anytime that does what this cleanse does. Which is why so many people use it and recommend it all over the world. Just like me.

  Sorry Recovering, but I'm just not buying what you're selling. Your information is not very compelling. Your "alternative therapies" are pathetic and get TROUNCED AWAY when compared to this cleanse and what it does. Which you no longer deny.

  This is a great cleanse, IMO, and I will continue to suggest it to others.

  If you or anybody else does not think it's a good or safe cleanse, then simply don't do it.

  But suggesting that others check it out, after having success with it myself as well as seeing that same success from others, is a reasonable thing to do.
• 

  recovering

  Take my challenge Vinny show me the proof from an unbiased scientific study supporting all these wild claims. You obviously cannot Vinny. Pictures of Gallstones do not prove anything. You are free to use what ever medical treatment you wish. However, your advocacy of unproven medical treatments for others is just plain foolhardy. Again I implore you show me the scientific study. Any medical treatment that claims to cure such diverse ailments as depression to cancer to very greasy hair is obviously attempting to blow smoke to any rational person. All you have been able to provide is anecdotal evidence.

  The term anecdotal evidence is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is.

  When used in advertising or promotion of a product, service, or idea, anecdotal reports are often called a testimonial.

  In science, anecdotal evidence has been defined as:

  • "information that is not based on facts or careful study" [2]
  • "non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts" [3]
  • "reports or observations of usually unscientific observers" [4]
  • "casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis" [5]
  • "information passed along by word-of-mouth but not documented scientifically"
• 

  Vinny

  So we have this thing whittled down now.

  Recovery cannot deny that the Liver Cleanse actually works. (My Personal testimony, many thousands of others have testified as well as thousands of photos GIVE PROOF it works.)

  Recovery cannot deny the proof that the liver cleanse literally removes gallstones . And most of the time MANY HUNDREDS OF GALLSTONES or more.

  Recovery cannot prove that one single person out of the hundreds of thousands of people that have taken the Liver Cleanse has ever died from it or even become gravely ill. NOT ONE.

  Recovery cannot refute the fact that it's the number one Liver cleanse site from Google because it does work.

  Recovery has never tried the Liver Cleanse so really has no idea what he is talking about from first hand experience.

  All Recovery can now do, since he has run out of options, is ask Vinny to pull up a scientific study somewhere proving that the liver cleanse works.

  But you see folks, a scientific study has never been done on this Liver Cleanse. And he knows this. C-mon Recovery, show us a scientific study that proves this liver cleanse does not work.

  So now what do you have to say Recovery?

  Recovery (with all his credentials) is now at a DEAD END.

  He cannot deny it works. He cannot refute all the testimony from so many people, just like me, that have used the cleanse proving it works. He cannot prove ANY casualties. He cannot show any scientific studies that prove it doesn't work. His arguments have been debunked and refuted. And basically he's just stuck stuck with his opinion that it's simply not safe enough, though he has never even tried it and though there is no evidence that supports that claim either.

  Poor Recovering. A Tough place to be...

  Vinny
• 

  recovering

  It has never been studied Vinny that is correct. You should be asking why it has never been scientifically studied. All legitimate companies that manufacture medications support very rigorous scientific analysis of their products before they begin marketing them to the public. Also since the companies that sell this product are largely unregulated they do not keep records of mortality rates. I have already addressed the mortality of patients exposed to magnesium sulfate cathartics (The Epsom salt component of your cleanse) By the way, Vinny there are many alternative medical treatments that have been scientifically studied. Some show promise. I am not adverse to learning about an alternative to traditional medicine as long as it's efficacy can be scientifically confirmed. So bring on the scientific proof. You now know the criteria I am expecting.

  You are just a stubborn person refusing to see the truth no matter how much evidence is provided Vinny.
• 

  Vinny

  You must not have read my last reply, in between your last two replies.

  I can respect that you may personally want scientific proof before trying any health program. But there has been none for or against the cleanse since no scientific study has ever been done on it.

  Which means you are at a dead end, Recovering. You only have blanks to shoot now.

  For me, and for many others, the proof is in the pudding. The evidence, photos and testimony are powerful and convincing and you cannot refute it.

  This thing absolutely works. If it's not for you, then fair enough. I personally respect your right to disagree. Don't try the cleanse then.

  But you have failed to convince me to share your point of view.

  You've not even come close.

  Vinny
• 

  recovering

  I have tried to reason with you logically Vinny, I can see that it is hopeless. At least do not advocate a scientifically unproven cure to others. You can do whatever you want with your own body. I have shown that it is impossible for meatball or grape sized gallstones to pass out of the liver. I have explaned to you what you are expelling is bile stained congealed oil.(soap)

  I have a very easy test you can do to prove if what I am saying is true or not Vinny. Next time you do one of your cleanses put a bottle of either red food coloring in the oil you drink. Prepare everything else as you normally would. When you pass your "stones" cut one of the larger stones open. I will guarentee That it will be stained red inside. This should prove to you that the "stones" not from the liver but the congealed oil as I claim.