by D wiltshire 45 Replies latest jw friends
My Dad once asked the Elders, "Why is it, when I counsel you, its critisim, but when you counsel me, its scriptual admonition?"
Be warned...don't open your bible in the presence of an elder to counsel him.
Can anyone here, emphatically prove, from the bible, that an Elder's shit stinks too?
I didn't think so!!!! -ha
Still the picture is not as black and white as some have experienced here. I was ousted once, by four elders and a CO. Then I wrote a ten pages letter to all COs and DOs I could think of and knew. An appeal com. was formed with 2 COs and 3 POs, and after a good conversation the first decision was nullified and critizised. The original CO soon stepped down, and one elder moved. Had it not worked, I would have proceeded with GB letters.
My point is, if you have a case you feel is strong, then keep your head cool, write down everything relevant and distribute it as widely as you can "upwards". My naive feeling is that if you have a good case, you are treated nicely and with respect by the "upwards" guys - it's the "men in the middle" who at times can be a bit more difficult.
Can You Defend Yourself before a J. Committee?
No
Old hippie,
I guess I'm one old hippie too.
Yes you can appeal and win some times, BUT and here is the big buts:
But if you are DF for apostacy, I don't think you stand a chance.
Hypothetical case in point:
Superior Authorities in Romans 13.
Say it is before 1960 and you go around the congregation and start telling every one that absolutely no-way can the superior authorities be Jesus and Jehovah, but according to the context are the governments.
So the elders form a judicial committee to DF you for apostacy. At this meeting you want to show why you are right, but they have to stick strickly to the WT explanation at the time.
Will they let you use reason and common sense logic to prove your point? No.
If after you get DF'd and appeal to the Society will they listen to your defense if it disagrees with their Official teaching on the subject, and reverse the elders desision to DF? NO!
And lets say 2 years latter 1962(I think) they change back to Superior Authorities are now the Governments.
Will they now reinstate you because you were right after all? NO.
They will let you stay DF'd even if they were wrong to DF you, and you were right in your interpetation.
Is that justice?
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Intersting post from DWiltshire, I appreciate your candid comments on the flaws in WT Justice.
I have just come across a current issue at the moment where there is no feeling or love involved.
In a local cong, about 3 months ago a brother had been suffering from mental illness which had reached such proportions that he had to be "sectioned" under the mental health act in hospital.
During his treatment he recieved heavy doses of medication and anti-depressants, whilst under the influence of this medication, he commited adultery in hospital with another patient.
The local elders found out and wanted to hold a JC even though this brother was still in Hospital.
As he was not able to attend the Kingdom Hall, he was disfellowshipped in his absence. Imagine his horror on coming out of hospital a month later recovered from his problems to this news.
It is just another of many stories where elders make immoral decisions such as this and when the WTBS recieve the S77b don't take any action against the elders.
This case was overturned on appeal, you may say justice has been carried out, but these elders are still serving and able to sit on future committees.
Hippy you said "An appeal com. was formed with 2 COs and 3 POs,"
I didn't think that CO's where allowed to sit on Original or appeal committees as they are "Official Reps of the WTBS" and this could cause legal problems, however they are allowed to serve on Special committees between the contrasting committees if there is a difference of opinion, they are not allowed to meet the "wrongdoer"
This is the case in the UK anyway.
Regards Jem
JEMIMAH,
Thanks for the post, this is a real eye opener for lurkers who are still under WT cult mind control.
And I would like to thank all who have posted, again thank you!
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Big D. Wiltshire,
I admire you and thank you for sharing.
JEMIMAH,
Keep posting.
Jst2laws
I didn't think that CO's where allowed to sit on Original or appeal committees as they are "Official Reps of the WTBS" and this could cause legal problems, however they are allowed to serve on Special committees between the contrasting committees if there is a difference of opinion, they are not allowed to meet the "wrongdoer"
This is the case in the UK anyway.
The situation here in Oz is that a CO may be asked by the branch office to sit on either an original judicial committee or an appeal committee. The circumstances would be judged by the Service Department to warrant their appointing the CO to the committee. In other words, it could happen if the local elders called for assistance to the branch office. We have had such rare cases in Oz. I recall one in which the decision of the JC being chaired by a CO was over-ruled by the Service Department overseer in Bethel. BTW he's now serving in Brooklyn/Patterson. Special committees may include a travelling overseer if so appointed by the Service Department. Recall that it's the Service Department which appoints all members of a Special Committee.
Good to hear from you again Jem.
Cheers,
Ozzie
"It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
Anonymous
Dearest DWilt... and all... peace to you!
As to your question, 'been there; done that'.
In the end, it was a total 14 meetings (7 'official'). JC's 'final conclusion'? "We don't know what to do with you." When I asked "What is there TO do, and why DO anything?" the reply was, "Well, you have shown us that all that you have said is in the Bible... BUT... the Watchtower has not published it yet and so you are running ahead. You are 'going beyong the things written." When I asked, "The things written WHERE?", one 'elder' actually replied, "The things written in the Watchtower." Which caused the other 'elders' present some discomfort. Of course.
Bottom line? A month after the last meeting, I got a phone call:
Elder: "Have you changed your thinking yet? No? Then we will need to meet with you again."
Me: "There is no reason to meet again; I have shared all that I have been given to share with you... WITH you. There is nothing more."
Next Elder: "Then we will have to announce your disfellowshipping."
Me: "What, as an apostate?!"
Them: "Oh NO! We don't consider you an apostate. No, on the grounds of rebelliousness. You are refusing to meet with us. But you have our word, we don't consider you an apostate."
Now, I remind you, I had already met.. 14 times!
Suffice it to say, contrary to their 'word', I am known as 'an apostate'.
(Oh, and BTW, I have had a CO sit in on a Judicial Committee. They can, and do. But apparently, it's rare.)
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
SJ,
14 times you meet with them and because you won't meet for the fifteenth your rebellious what a bunch of swill. Those elders need their collective asses kicked.
Thanks for the post, and oh I almost forgot and may you have peace too,.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
