Judicial Committee Meetings

by Pathofthorns 45 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  waiting

  Hey larc,

  They probably would assure you that they were spiritually strong enough to handle it and press you for the x rated details.

  I believe the WTBTS teaching in this matter is that the elders should assure themselves that the sinner is repentant. Of course, they have to get the whole picture in order to be able to visualize the sin and repentance.

  Thus, questions ranging from what did your bra look like? Was it a push-up? (shows intent to entice) We didn't have thong underwear in the 70's, but we had bikini underwear. The WTBTS had warned sisters, yes they did, that the demons watched what type of underwear we hid under our skirts. Therefore, it was not out of line for elders to demand an answer as to whether I was wearing bikini underwear to entice men & demons. (No pun intended.)

  I, in no way, think all elders behave like the 5 men did to me. Or to Nellie, or to Thinker's Wife, or to others who I'm not at liberty to name here, or to the ones mentioned in the first post on H20.

  But the WTBTS trains elders to discern a person's heart, intent, spirituality, repentance, amount of sin. And the WTBTS gives much latitude in the discerning phase. All spiritual power is in the elders' hands - and they know it.

  And the sinner is to assume all these thousands of elders are all upright, honest-hearted men with the sinner's soul as their goal. Oh, and that these thousands of elders have God's spirit directing them.

  I think, as a sinner, I might have been a tad too gullible.

  waiting
• 

  Xandit

  Waiting,

  I wasn't suggesting you were lying. Unfortuntately I've been involved in one way or another with more committee meetings than I care to remember so I was just drawing from that experience as well as the way things are supposed to be conducted.
• 

  Frenchy

  Unfortunately I have been on many committee meetings. Most of these cases involved individuals within my own congregation but several times other congregations were involved and so I got to see how other bodies handled themselves in these cases. It’s true that procedure is not always followed. I would venture to say, according to my limited experience, that there are some violations of procedure in the majority of the instances. Again, based on my experience I would say that most of that is due to ignorance on the part of the individual elders.
  Only three elders are to comprise a judicial committee. Under extraordinary circumstances another may be brought in if his expertise is needed in a matter. (Perhaps as in a case of fraud an elder who is a CPA might be able to untangle some of the specifics) There are to be no observers, not even the C.O.! Any violation of this or any other rule of procedure should be reported to the Society and I am here to tell you that it will be addressed. As Xandit noted, the elders do take notes and are instructed to do so. You are also allowed to take whatever notes you wish. At the end of the meeting the individual elders are to turn their notes in to the chairman who will then keep these in a secure place until the committee meets again on this specific matter. When the matter is finally settled, one way or the other, a report is written up and sealed in an envelope with the name of the publisher (victim) and the name of the members of the committee, noting the chairman along with the date. That envelope is not available to the other elders and no one may read this besides a member of the original committee in connection with the case. All other notes by the members are then destroyed.
  The Society is very adamant about confidentiality. If they are provided with proof of breach of confidentiality the elder will lose his position. They fear legal reprisals. You do have the right to face your accuser. You cannot be found ‘guilty’ without a confession or the testimony of two witnesses. You have the right to hear the charges brought up against you. Worldly persons are allowed if they are credible. You have the right to bring in your witnesses if they can refute what has been said against you or can provide an alibi, etc. ‘Character’ witnesses, however, are not accepted. Witnesses from neighboring congregations are not excluded either. The offense of ‘slander’ cannot be applied to one for merely refraining from speaking or for not following proper decorum. Slander is a very specific offense and as such it is a technical term that the Society demands be used properly. While you will be cautioned against speaking about what goes on in the meeting to others, you cannot be df’d for doing so unless what you say is indeed slander or malicious gossip.
  Any violation of these rules is enough to have the Society call a ‘special committee’ to look into the matter. I have personally witnessed such a situation in our congregation years back when I was serving as a M.S. The elders acted improperly in a situation and they got called down on it. There was also a case where a sister was df’d for lying and the decision was reversed by the appeal committee. This happened in our congregation and I was on the committee whose decision was reversed.
  As for those improper questions these need not be answered but should be reported to the Society. I have personally had to stop elders serving on the committee from getting too personal in their questions. Elders are cautioned against doing this but some can't seem to resist. So to anyone who is going through this or forsees going through this any time soon, keep these points in mind. You have the right to call or write to the Society about this if you are not satisfied with the way the committee handled the situation. If you are df'd, you have ten days in which to submit a written letter to the committee stating why you think their decision was wrong and they have to send this in to the Sociey with the DF form. They may not make the announcement of your DF'ing until they hear from the Society. The Society will appoint a second committee to review the case. The appeal committee may open the whole thing up again and go from scratch.
  Even if the appeal committee agrees with the first committee, you can still appeal to the Society and they will consideration to your plea. They have been known to throw out the judgment of both committees.
  Publishers have more rights than most people think.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Pathofthorns

  Ok frenchy. So publishers have all these rights.

  What is the penalty for wrongfully "handing someone over to Satan", for ruining a reputation, for destroying someone's life?? Why should a publisher have to conduct themselves as a lawyer?

  It is usually the weak ones, those not terribly informed who are cast asside, who wouldn't know how to write a good appeal letter, or really understand their "rights".

  Path
• 

  waiting

  Hey Frenchy,

  A good woman, who is a sister and a friend of mine, used to talk with me a lot. She knew our business situation with the elders/WTBTS. Her final response was always the same:

  I know that's the way it is. But it's not supposed to be that way.

  I agree with you both. What you have outlined is the way it's supposed to be. I am living proof as to the way it is - as it happened to me.

  On H20, 7 posted the question: Name an organization with higher ideals than the WTBTS. I concur - the WTBTS does have high ideals. Being God's Only Channel for mankind is high, indeed.

  But an ideal - or a code of ethics - does not necessarily mean the way things happen in reality. Look at the court systems, the politicians, the police, the military, teachers, doctors, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters ......... They should be.....does not necessarily translate to they are.

  You have your experiences, I have mine. To my knowledge - you have always sat on the side of WTBTS power. Man, elder, brother. I have always sat on the side of weakness. Weaker vessal, woman, sister. No power. Therein might be one of our differences.

  I appreciate the way it should be, the values stated. It never occurred to me that a ministerial servant would rape my daughter and his own daughter. We're christians. It never occurred to me that the body of elders would not even question him about the years of rapes for fear of being sued. I'm sure there are guidelines for raping children. I knew the PO., he said they contacted WT about this matter. And the elders backed off completely. I talked with the PO about it - he said wife threatened to sue so they dropped the matter. His daughter has been df'd twice, mine once. He was never even spoken to. What guideline does that fall under?

  That system has failed me - before the 5 elders, again when my daughter was raped, when another elder tried to have sex with me, when our body of elders abused their position to make a fraudulent business deal, and when the WTBTS atty. said "go ahead and sue your PO for slander, elders are sued every day."

  That's the way it really is, at least in my experience. There are guidelines, and there are screw-ups. If a woman was raped in a corporation, would the persons in power hold up their ideals for her to view - to show how things should be? Probably, until they got sued.

  We're just on different sides of the issue this time around. Neither is right or wrong - we just know what we've actually experienced, not what we've read.

  waiting

  Edited by - waiting on 17 December 2000 23:53:41
• 

  nelly136

  I didnt realise I has any rights, at that time I was very much
  under the influence of the jws, I was born one and as far as I knew they had every right to ask me the questions they did, it never occurred to me for one moment that I could say...I'm not answering that!
  I had never really had much dealings with the elders in their *official* capacity. I had no control over how many times they came round to the house to encourage me to talk about my sins yet again and repent, although I'd stating quite clearly in my letter that I was asking to be disfellowshipped, I had the elders and my parents
  present it was very intimidating,
  I was 18 and possess a slight stubborn streak :-)but I would dread to think what that kind of questioning would do to a victim of child abuse, gives me the shudders just thinking about it.
  nelly
• 

  Naeblis

  Somehow I never did get cornered into one of t hese shams. Probably because I enver fell under the mentality that the elders were some quasi mythical group who couldn't be defied. I usually just ignored their summons *grin* They HATED that. :)
• 

  Xandit

  Frenchy,

  Have you ever heard of a CO having access to judicial file? I have heard it mentioned, not sure where that falls under the confidentiality requirement. I have never seen anything giving them authorization to open one of those sealed files.
• 

  Frenchy

  Path:
  

  It is usually the weak ones, those not terribly informed who are cast asside, who wouldn't know how to write a good appeal letter, or really understand their "rights".

  You’re right. Those people are the ones that are taken advantage of. No one is informed of his rights by those on the committee. I posted these things so that if someone is going through this or is about to go through it that they might be better informed as to what they can do to protect themselves.

  waiting:
  It might surprise you to know that I have been on both sides of the table in that infamous ‘little room’. I know what it feels like to face the elders as well as I know how it feels to face the brother or sister. I don’t like either side. There are many, many inequities as I noted. Many a life has been shattered by the injustices that occur in those rooms. Far too many elders are completely unqualified for the position they occupy. Far too many elders are emotionally and psychologically unfit to serve in that capacity. I have experienced a great deal of this also. Favoritism, biases, prejudices, egos, the lust for power, the list goes on and on. All of these factors and others come into play in each individual case and as a result we have a long list of horror stories.
  My post was not to justify what is being done. I walked away from all of that. My post was to inform those that are perhaps going through this or are about to or perhaps know of someone in such a circumstance of how this is supposed to go. Knowing what is supposed to happen and knowing what rights you have is a tremendous help in such cases. It’s shocking, isn’t it, to know what the ‘ideal’ is in comparison to what actually happens?
  I do not doubt for a minute that you have been anything but forthright and accurate in your account of what happened to you. I am truly sorry that you have suffered in such a way. I am truly sorry that your daughter (I have two of my own) had to suffer this way. Both of you should have been shown compassion instead of condemnation, understanding instead of accusations, mercy instead of punishment. I know that these committees are a far cry from being just.
  I hope that I did not say anything that in any way may have trivialized your sufferings or in anyway may have appeared to be a justifying of the mechanism that was responsible for your grief.

  Xandit:
  

  Have you ever heard of a CO having access to judicial file? I have heard it mentioned, not sure where that falls under the confidentiality requirement. I have never seen anything giving them authorization to open one of those sealed files.

  Yes. Although he really does not actually open the sealed letter himself, under rare circumstances, C.O.’s may be consulted on judicial cases. They will be given the particulars, including names, and be asked how to proceed. They do not just browse the files and indiscriminately open judicial files out of curiosity, however. It is not viewed as a breach of confidentiality to allow the C.O. access to this information anymore than sending the written report to the Society on the DF form is viewed as a breach of confidentiality. The C.O. is viewed as an agent of the Society.
  Although the C.O. may be consulted in particularly difficult and complicated cases it is the Judicial Committee that makes the decision and not the C.O. His advise is primarily to answer specific questions concerning procedures or the way the society would view a particular action.
  Hope that helps.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  waiting

  Hello Frenchy,

  Thank you for your post. The tone of the second post is entirely different from the tone of the first. To make sure - I went back and reread both posts.

  Perhaps the next time you set out WTBTS guidelines in response to personal posts, you should explain your reasoning first. Most likely, at least one of us reading the WTBTS guidelines won't go into attack mode - seeing that the reader to your post had to draw his/her own conclusions as to why you posted the WTBTS guidelines in the first place.

  An explanation at the time of the posting as to your reason for posting such arbritary black/white guidelines would be appreciated. Unless you're really just being black/white arbritary - then no explanation necessary.

  waiting