Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?

by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Eyes Open
    Eyes Open

    Eyes Open:

    Hello reniaa,

    This reminds me of another discussion in which I recommended a book to you that discusses genres of literature in the bible. If I remember correctly you declined to consider this important avenue of scholarship. Perhaps you would consider reading it as it is relevant to the issues in this thread and you will not learn about this important topic in your bible "study" with Jehovah's Witnesses, whose teachings require that they selectively literally apply certain scriptures whilst ignoring wider context and purpose.

    Since then I have seen that it is available online for free:

    How to Read the Bible: History, Prophecy, Literature - Why Modern Readers Need to Know the Difference, and What it Means for Faith Today , Steven L. McKenzie

    Let us know what you think, particularly about chapter five.

    reniaa:

    The bible is my main thing that I judge all things by (inc Wts) and i like that i judge it from my own viewpoint if a statement is made using a scripture to back it up then i can judge for myself if the statement is valid or not by reading the scripture and judging for myself, pretty much as billy bethelite does with his notes on wts articles, they are what his opinion are on the wts studies and he has the right to do that! but you are asking me to read some jobloggs opinion based 'How to' book on bible reading I maybe snobbish in this but i'm happy with the way I do it now lol.

    A few things:

    Firstly, if you only ever read the bible and Watchtower literature, you will struggle to get a balanced view. The religion itself claims that its interpretations of the bible are required to understand the collection of literature - this is hardly harmonious with the notion that the bible is the basis for judging teachings. It's just one example of circular reasoning. I suggest that by taking on board factual information and considering different interpretations we are much more able to get to the bottom of things and build a faith.

    If you are really in search of truth as opposed to something labelled as "the truth" it can only be a good thing to open yourself up to information without judging it beforehand in order to give yourself the chance to evaluate and research its validity and subsequently form opinions.

    Second, "some jobloggs" is Professor of Hebrew Bible/Old Testament at Rhodes College in Memphis, Tennessee. A cursory read through his entry in the faculty and staff section will show that his "opinion" is an informed one. I realise the JW mindset is trained to dismiss academics and their findings (at least when they don't happen to coincide with the party line), but I still think you would agree that it would be foolish to automatically discount what they have to share without first availing yourself of the relevant material. An author such as this one, who engages with scholarlism in all its forms and who has made the old testament his lifes work, is not someone to shrug off at one's whim with the mistaken idea that one is being independent by instead sticking to the source material as we have it now (the works in the bible) and one publishing house's religious literature.

    Third, do you really think you are beyond learning? I find it strange that you would dismiss such a book so flippantly, unless your knowledge in the field is more advanced than the level at which the work is aimed. What's the problem with continuing to learn by reading respected authors?

    Fourth, I am not "asking" you to read, or do, anything. I am merely recommending one book which I found very enlightening and that will give you some additional information and input.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Hi isaacaustin and mrsjones this is a contraversial scripture as no one can be 100% which days months and years hes refering too, some say its jewish days but others say since galations was pagan lol it was refering to pagan feasts and suchlike. Opinion is mixed on it. So its one all reading must draw there own conclusions from reading in context. Reniaa The context of the previous verses take any controversy away from this. Who was Paul talking to? The people who were trying to be saved by works of the Law. But even if we said he was talking to the Gentiles (which he wasn't) he is not outlawing the days. He is simply warning that pinning one's salvation on them won't work. Makes no sense to say he was talking to the Gentiles- actually ends up sounding stupid. The Gnetiles were not trying to corrupt the grace of God with works of the Law.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Reniaa said: Hi isaacaustin and mrsjones this is a contraversial scripture as no one can be 100% which days months and years hes refering too, some say its jewish days but others say since galations was pagan lol it was refering to pagan feasts and suchlike. Opinion is mixed on it.

    Reniaa, out of all the stupid comments you've made on this thread, this one tops them all. There is no controversy with this scripture, as it is clearly referring to the early Jewish Christians trying to still keep the Jewish Law. It was understandably difficult for many of them to get used to the new idea that salvation was through Christ's sacrifice, not by the Written Law. Was there anything wrong with them observing the Jewish Holidays? No, that's not what was in dispute and we know that the early Jewish Christians did still practice many of the Jewish Holidays, because they were celebrating the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot) at Penecost when the Holy Spirit decended upon them. It was not the practice of celebrating the holidays that was in question-----it was the idea that the still had to "work" for salvation that was being discussed. You claim that an (unidentified) number of people think this is referring to pagan feasts. Do you have any links or references to back up this claim? I'm not familiar with any texts that indicate this could be a reference to celebrating "pagan feasts".

    well my profile does mention that i'm thinking of going back and my posts reflect this so you not stating anything I haven't said of myself jgnat

    IMHO Reniaa, I think you are a liar and a lousy one at that. I don't believe that you're an inactive or lapsed Witness who hasn't gone in 10 years------your posts smack of being an active Witness, or perhaps a semi-active Witness at best. Of course I do not have 100% proof but it's just a gut feeling I have. We've had other active Witnesses post on here over the years who claim that they're not really Witnesses, yet they do exactly what you're doing: Ignoring threads that they have no answer to, and then claim that they have indeed answered them. (for those who have been on here a while, I'm sure you'll remember two such posters: Fred Hall and You Know).

    Here's a question for you Reniaa: A few years ago, the Memorial, the Passover and Easter all happened to fall on the same day. As we all know, the WTS has always classified Easter as being from "pagan origin". Since the Society celebrated the Memorial on a pagan holiday that year, aren't they guilty of participating in "pagan practices?"

    Chew on that for a while.....

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa

    If this debate closes i would simply like to encourage you to read the Bible in whole without any sort of commentaries or lit- especially WT lit which I beleive you are psting from. You answers and replies wreak of the WT- and sadly show a lack of critical thinking and reading. You have presented multiple verses out of context and when pointed out to you you simply try to say it is a controversial scripture that can mean many things. This is the same verse that you, previous to my showing you what the verse really says, tried to use as a definite proof text that the WT point is correct. Very sad.

    The WT is effective in capturing the minds of those who do not critically think. They know what they beleive but not why they beleive what they believe. Thus their beleifs are easily refuted by the WT out of context proof texts that are usually combined with other unrelated texts to make the point appear substantiated.

    I have found the ideologies you have spouted here to be WT rubbish with no substance whatsoever. Again, I hope you can break free from this control the WT has over you.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    You claim that an (unidentified) number of people think this is referring to pagan feasts. Do you have any links or references to back up this claim? I'm not familiar with any texts that indicate this could be a reference to celebrating "pagan feasts". Yes Reniaa Please don't be like the WT here. You made a claim now back it up with sources. You know Reniaa, prior to your posting this I thought you were simply following your WT mind and taking a verse out of context. Now this reply shows how sad shape a JW truly is in. It shows how far, how ridiculous statements you will make simply to uphold WT teachings- regardless if right or wrong. I can not believe you are that stupid to have read these Galatian verses and beleive Paul was talking to the newly converted Gentiles about pagan holidays.

  • DaCheech
    DaCheech

    Reniaa, out of all the stupid comments you've made on this thread, this one tops them all. There is no controversy with this scripture, as it is clearly referring to the early Jewish Christians trying to still keep the Jewish Law. It was understandably difficult for many of them to get used to the new idea that salvation was through Christ's sacrifice, not by the Written Law. Was there anything wrong with them observing the Jewish Holidays? No, that's not what was in dispute and we know that the early Jewish Christians did still practice many of the Jewish Holidays, because they were celebrating the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot) at Penecost when the Holy Spirit decended upon them. It was not the practice of celebrating the holidays that was in question-----it was the idea that the still had to "work" for salvation that was being discussed.
    and this is another example, where I boil over in reguards to the watchtower: they claim "mosaic law has been abolished, but the principle of the law stand forever". This is why 98% of the articles bring up old barbaric stuff from the "war years" of the tribes and forget about the christian way of Jesus

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    since you ask i'll provide the links there are a couple on gal 4: 10 they are just random ones from the first google page with just these few opinion is mixed., While i have read the occasional watchtower in the last 10 years most of my info I google or wiki.

    http://bible.cc/galatians/4-10.htm

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

    10. To regard the observance of certain days as in itself meritorious as a work, is alien to the free spirit of Christianity. This is not incompatible with observing the Sabbath or the Christian Lord's day as obligatory, though not as a work (which was the Jewish and Gentile error in the observance of days), but as a holy mean appointed by the Lord for attaining the great end, holiness. The whole life alike belongs to the Lord in the Gospel view, just as the whole world, and not the Jews only, belong to Him. But as in Paradise, so now one portion of time is needed wherein to draw off the soul more entirely from secular business to God (Col 2:16). "Sabbaths, new moons, and set feasts" (1Ch 23:31; 2Ch 31:3), answer to "days, months, times." "Months," however, may refer to the first and seventh months, which were sacred on account of the number of feasts in them.

    times-Greek, "seasons," namely, those of the three great feasts, the Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.

    years-The sabbatical year was about the time of writing this Epistle, A.D. 48 [Bengel].

    http://www.newswatchmagazine.org/restknowledge/gal48.htm

    "You observe days, and months, and times and years."



    At face value does this say…Pentecost, Days of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Tabernacles, and such? Be honest! Of course it does not. Then are we to assume without proof that God's holy days are being called into question and abrogated? That would be a dangerous assumption which could put one in the category Peter spoke of - twisting Scripture unto our own destruction. We need to ask some questions and search out the answers.

    WHO WERE GALATIANS?

    Paul wrote to Galatians. But who were they? They were Gentile converts and had come from a background of pagan practices. Let's not be afraid to look into their background. Galatia was a region in Asia Minor where the churches of Lystra, Iconium, Antioch, Derbe and others were located. Now let's look in Acts 14:8-18 for their background. Paul was used by Christ to heal a man born in a crippled condition. See verses 8 - 10. As a result the pagan Gentiles wanted to worship Paul and Barnabas thinking the apostles were their gods, Jupiter and Mercury! They even wanted to do sacrifice to them v.11-13. Paul and Barnabas, pleading with them to not do such a thing scarcely restrained them v. 14-18.

    This is precisely what Paul said to them in Gal. 4:8 as to how they were prior to conversion.

    "Howbeit then, when you knew not God, you did service unto them which by nature are no gods."

    They had been slaves to gods that were not even gods at all. They had been worshipping demons. It was out of this pagan superstition that Christ used Paul and Barnabas to convert them into serving the living Christ.

    Now someone was trying to beguile them into returning to their former ways. Paul was alarmed! Gal. 4:9…

    "But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, HOW TURN YOU AGAIN (back) to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage?"



    What were those ways they were turning back to? "Observing days, months, times and years." They could NOT be returning to God's festivals! As Gentiles, they had never kept them before Paul preached about them.



    WAYS OF PAGAN WORSHIP



    The heathen followed certain customs of observing particular days. Go to a reputable encyclopedia and you will find various festivals of the heathen. Saturnalia - today called Christmas; feast of Astarte with special cakes made to this 'queen of heaven' - today is Easter and hot cross buns; All Saints Day or Hallowe'en today; and women weeping for Tammuz - Lent, today.

    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gal004.htm

    8 But then indeed, not knowingGod, you served them who, by nature, are not gods. 9 But now, after that you have knownGod, or rather are known by God: how turn you again to the weak and needy elements which you desire to serve again? 10 You observe days and months and times, and years. You observe days, etc... He speaks not of the observation of the Lord's day, or other Christian festivals; but either of the superstitious observation of days lucky and unlucky; or else of the Jewish festivals, to the observance of which, certain Jewish teachers sought to induce the Galatians. 11 I am afraid of you, lest perhaps I have laboured in vain among you.

    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal4-10.html

    PROJECT WITTENBERG
    __________

    Commentary on the Epistle
    to the Galatians
    (1535)
    by Martin Luther
    Translated by Theodore Graebner
    (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1949)
    Chapter 4, pp. 172-193


    To: Previous Page - Contents Galatians - Martin Luther - Project Wittenberg

    Chapter 4, pp. 172-193
    Galatians 4:10-31
    __________

      VERSE 10.Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

    The Apostle Paul knew what the false apostles were teaching the Galatians: The observance of days, and months, and times, and years. The Jews had been obliged to keep holy the Sabbath Day, the new moons, the feast of the passover, the feast of tabernacles, and other feasts. The false apostles constrained the Galatians to observe these Jewish feasts under threat of damnation. Paul hastens to tell the Galatians that they were exchanging their Christian liberty for the weak and beggarly elements of the world.

    http://www.ucg.org/booklets/nc/bondage.htm

    Galatians 4:9-10: Are God's Laws Bondage?

    Some view Galatians 4:9-10 as condemning Old Testament laws. In these verses Paul wrote: "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years."

    Those who argue against God's laws see Paul's reference to "days and months and seasons and years" as pointing to the Sabbath, festivals and sabbatical and jubilee years given in the Old Testament (Leviticus 23, 25). They view these God-given observances as the "weak and miserable principles" (NIV) to which the Galatians were "turn[ing] again" and becoming "in bondage" (verse 9).

    Is this Paul's meaning?

    There is an obvious problem with viewing these verses as being critical of the Sabbath, since the Sabbath is not even mentioned here. The term "Sabbath," "Sabbaths" and any related words do not even appear anywhere in the epistle to the Galatians.

    To argue against keeping the Sabbath, some assume that the "years" referred to in Galatians 4:10 are the sabbatical and jubilee years described in Leviticus 25. However, the jubilee year was not being observed anywhere in Paul's day, and the sabbatical year was not being observed in areas outside Palestine (Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 14, p. 582, and Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 666, "Sabbatical Year and Jubilee"). The fact that Galatia was in pagan Asia Minor, far outside the land of Israel, makes it illogical to imagine Paul could have been referring to the sabbatical and jubilee years.

    The Greek words Paul used for "days and months and seasons and years" are used throughout the New Testament in describing normal, civil periods of time. They are totally different from the precise terms Paul used in Colossians 2:16 specifying the Sabbaths and festivals of God. He used exact terminology for biblical observances in Colossians, but used very different Greek words in Galatians—a clear indication that he was discussing altogether different subjects.

    To understand what Paul meant, we must examine both the historic and immediate contexts of these verses.

    The Galatians couldn't "turn again" to days they had never observed

    The Galatian churches were composed mostly of members from a gentile, rather than Jewish, background. Paul made it clear that they were physically uncircumcised (Galatians 5:2; 6:12-13), so they could not have been Jewish.

    This background is important in understanding this controversial scripture. In Galatians 4:9-10, Paul said that the Galatians were "turn[ing] again to the weak and beggarly elements," which included "days and months and seasons and years." Since Paul's readers were from a gentile background, it is difficult to see how the "days and months and seasons and years" they were turning back to could be the Sabbath and other biblical festivals, since they could not "turn again" to something they had not previously observed.

    This is made even clearer by the immediate context. In verse 8, Paul said, "When you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods." By this Paul referred "clearly to the idols of paganism, which, in typical Jewish idiom, Paul termed 'not gods'" (The Expositor's Bible Commentary, 1976, Vol. 10, p. 475).

    Not referring to biblical practices

    Is it possible that these "weak and beggarly elements" they were returning to (verse 9) could be God's laws, Sabbaths and festivals? The word translated "elements" here is the Greek word stoicheia. What does it mean? The Expositor's Bible Commentary explains:

    "It would seem that in Paul's time . . . stoicheia . . . referred to the sun, moon, stars, and planets—all of them associated with gods or goddesses and, because they regulated the progression of the calendar, also associated with the great pagan festivals honoring the gods. In Paul's view these gods were demons. Hence, he would be thinking of a demonic bondage in which the Galatians had indeed been held prior to the proclamation of the gospel . . .

    "In the verses that follow, Paul goes on to speak of these three crucial subjects in quick succession: (1) 'those who by nature are not gods,' presumably false gods or demons; (2) 'those weak and miserable principles,' again stoicheia; and (3) 'days and months and seasons and years' (vv. 9, 10). No doubt Paul would think of these demons in ways entirely different from the former thinking of the Galatians . . . Thus, this whole issue takes on a cosmic and spiritual significance. The ultimate contrast to freedom in Christ is bondage to Satan and the evil spirits" (p. 472).

    Superstitious observance of days and times

    This is the context in which at least some of the Galatians were observing special "days and months and seasons and years." The word translated here as "observe" or "observing" is the Greek word paratereo, meaning "to watch closely, [or] observe narrowly" (W.E. Vine, Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, "Observation, Observe").

    This word "seems to have the sense of 'anxious, scrupulous, well-informed observance in one's interest,' which . . . fit[s] regard for points or spans of time which are evaluated positively or negatively from the standpoint of the calendar or astrology" (Gerhard Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 1995, Vol. 8, p. 148).

    Whatever "days and months and seasons and years" the Galatians were observing, they were apparently observing them in a superstitious manner, as they had observed days and times before their conversion.

    From the context, we see it is simply not logical to conclude that Paul was criticizing the observance of the biblical Sabbath and festivals, since they were not even mentioned anywhere in this epistle. Instead, he was attacking misguided efforts to attain salvation through unnecessary superstitious observances.

    Paul tells them, "I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain" (verse 11). He was trying to prevent them from again becoming entangled in their former pagan practices.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa

    Even taking these commentaries into account..the point present in all of them is why these were being observed- with a superstitious outlook, or for salvation, under duress of damnation. Showing clearly it is intent that is at issue- not the day itself being wrong.

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    From the context, we see it is simply not logical to conclude that Paul was criticizing the observance of the biblical Sabbath and festivals, since they were not even mentioned anywhere in this epistle. Instead, he was attacking misguided efforts to attain salvation through unnecessary superstitious observances.

    Did you even read what you pasted?

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Even taking these commentaries into account..the point present in all of them is why these were being observed- with a superstitious outlook, or for salvation, under duress of damnation. Showing clearly it is intent that is at issue- not the day itself being wrong.

    hmmm isaac I'm not sure I buy the 'we can do something without it being wrong as long as our intent is good' argument if that was the case Christmas wouldn't be becoming more a secular festival losing it's christian tag and people are coming to accept that, but also the principle that if you get so involved with festivals and marking the years that you get mired in everyday things to start putting God in a minor place in your life is also there from my thoughts on the scripture. But do they lack superstition as well? why do all the rituals need observing, with certain feast days? no need to answer they were rhetorical questions. lol lets just agree to disagree you may have found some common ground from all the examples but my intent was only to show that many thought it pertained to specific feasts which i think I managed.

    Mrsjones I read them briefly but I wasn't making an argument just showing that there are different opinions on it.

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