(How) Does Truth Set Free?

by Narkissos 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    B.T.S. - The inscription above the gates of the death camps at Auschwitz and Dachau read: " Arbeit Macht Frei."

    Thank you for the correction, I do not speak German and was going off of memory.

    Also, I would not associate this now-infamous phrase with the Watchtower or the witnesses because, in doing so, it trivializes the unspeakable horrors that were carried out in the death camps.

    It was not intended as a trivialization, but it was useful because the JW theology is one of salvation through works. JWs are in a work camp.

    Work makes JWs free. Not truth, which is something that changes daily in the Tower.

    I understand that you recoil at the use of certain words associated with Nazi Germany in different concepts. But you must understand that this is probably the supreme example of evil in modern times. It has become a metaphor for anything evil. This does not trivialize it, but holds it up as the supreme example.

    BTS

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    Hello Narkissos - As a previous poster said, your topics never fail to make a person think; your topics are invariably thought-provoking.

    As for me, I associate freedom with folly, madness, if you will. This idea has its symbolic representation in the idea of the trickster, or of the Fool.

    The trickster is usually associated with Native American [i.e., "Indian"] lore, and, of course, the Fool has a long "pedigree" in European literature and folklore. For me, the two figures of the Fool and the trickster represent - in Jungian terms - the archetype of freedom. Throughout native American and European legends, these two figures represent correctives to social control.

    I am sure that you have heard of Erasmus' In Praise of Folly, his encomium to madness. And, of course, the Fool appears in the Tarot deck.

    There is a book entitled An Open Life, in which are featured a series of conversations between Joseph Campbell and Michael Toms. In the chapter, "Myth as Metaphor," Campbell, in response to a question of Toms concerning the role of the Fool, remarks - "And there's a very special property in the trickster; he always breaks in, just as the unconscious does, to trip up the rational situation. He's both a fool and someone who's beyond the system, And the trickster hero represents all those possibilities of life that your mind hasn't decided it wants to deal with...the fool or trickster represents another whole range of possibilities...

    The Fool really became an instructor of kings because he was careless of the king's opinion, careless of the king's power; and the king allowed this because he got wisdom from this uncontrolled source, The Fool is the breakthrough of the absolute into the field of controlled social orders [...]

    And at the end of the Tarot cards is the Fool, the one who's gone through all the stages that are represented in that series of cards, and now can wander through the world, careless and fearful of nothing."

    In my opinion, the king that Campbell mentions in the above example could be interpreted both literally - that is to say, an specific royal monarchial personage - and figuratively, as a sort of synecdoch, a trope in which the part replaces the whole, In other words, the "king" represents "King Reason." For me, the archetype of the trickster/fool is pure potentiality. And it there, in the realm of potetialities and possibilities, that one finds freedom. It is a realm other than the daily, rational one.

    Maybe I have been reading too much of Campbell and Hesse. Maybe I should switch to...I don't know...maybe Sade?

  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    Like in "the Matrix"....there is NO SPOON! Unplug thyself and live free in the dirty gritty real world.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Thank you all for your insightful replies.

    What I was trying to say is that, imo, nothing but "freedom" itself sets "free" (and I must admit that while I was writing my op I couldn't help thinking of the sinister echoes of the Auschwitz motto). And freedom is rather taken (or not) than given. Always with (or against?) a limited amount of "knowledge," true or false.

    Perhaps, the larger and "truer" our knowledge, the longer and the farther we might experience "freedom". But will we? Emil Cioran pointed to the flip side (approximately): The more I know, the less I want.

    Of course the Johannine context narrows the potential scope of the slogan down to a specific issue, which has to do with identity. Knowing the "truth" about the Father, through the Son, is ultimately knowing the "truth" about yourself. And the subsequent "freedom" is aristocratic in kind (at least in an imaginary way): feeling entitled to be who you are -- on a "mythical" plane.

    Seems like "freedom" is a play with many cards -- "truth" being one of them, along with "myth," "reason," "folly/insanity" and "death".

  • belbab
    belbab

    Truth is a pathless land. Jiddu Krishnamerti.

    It constantly takes effort to discover it. Relying totally on the paths of others does not lead to freedom.

    There is a story, it may be from Dostoevsky, I am not sure.

    Jesus and Satan are walking along a road, talking.

    In the road ahead of them they see a man bend overand pick something up.

    Jesus says to Satan, he has found a new truth, what will you do about that?

    Satan replies, I will leave him with it until he organizes it.

    belbab

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    The answers tend to revolve around the mystic, the thread of religion that truth lead to disassociation from the need to be bound to material things. But the answers must vary on a person's perspective, so there is not truth as none can be ultimately proven.

    What if there is no mystic or spiritual world? Is an evolutionary athiest freed by the knowledge that life is short and controlled by chance. They may be freed from superstitious myth, but enslaved by the knowledge that life has little purpose that ends in death.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    :Any thoughts?

    Yes. Truth is only perception. Freedom is only perception. Therefore, one cannot quantify either.

    Well, maybe God could do it, but God doesn't post here. JCanon is the closest thing we have to God in here, being the Son of God and all.. Maybe he could share some immutable truth with us. Or at least ask his Dad about it and get back to us.

    Farkel

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident
    From your first day at school you are cut off from life to make theories.
    -Taisen Deshimaru

    We make theories about scientific truths, religious truths, philosophical truths. If they can be proven we call them laws. With the possible exception of mathematical proofs, doesn't all truth have an element of subjectivity to it in spite of our desire to objectify it and lay claim to our limited perspective as "truth".

    When we argue facts (truths) we often are arguing for black or white and missing the shades of grey. I call to mind my husband's colorblindness. He has trouble distinguishing between shades of red and blue, especially if they are mixed. If I wear something purple, he will call it blue if that is the predominant undertone. If the red is more dominant in that shade of purple, he will call it red. I can't tell you how many times I have corrected him when he called my purple shirt blue or my fuschia shirt red. Who was right? Since color is only determined by our eyes, and hence is subjective, is the shirt purple or is it blue? Aren't both answers true according to each of our perspectives? Even if 90% of people agree that it is purple, does that make it "true" for the other 10% who only see blue?

    When you ask if the truth sets us free, my question would be, free from what? From our own perspective? What else could it set us free from? "Reality" only exists in the present moment. Everything else we argue about are theories about the past or future events that do not actually exist any more in present time. Yet we will kill each other over our version of the "truth" of these "facts" that we did not witness or experience for ourselves.

    No where is this more apparent than in religion. In the biblical sense, "the truth" is supposed to set us free from sin and death. Of course, we all die and rot in the ground anyway. There is no denying that fact. So this "truth" of living forever must always be set in a mythical future world that doesn't exist yet, call it heaven or hell or paradise. All this truth sets us free from is the fears brought about by the reality we don't want to face, the truth of our own iminent demise.

    Cog

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Maybe, in a sense, freedom is always on the other side of the fence...

    When we are trapped in our own subjective "truths," a step out on some "factual," "objective" ground can be tremendously liberating.

    When we feel miserably locked in the world of "objective facts," a step into contemplative or creative subjectivity can be a liberating experience too...

    I tend to think that the "depth" of the best "spiritual" formulas lies precisely in their ambivalence.

    "Whoever wants to save his life/soul will lose it, whoever loses his life/soul will save it." Is it about losing something outward and concrete (like wealth) to access some "inner" or "spiritual" way of being, or getting rid of a mental representation of self to get "real"? I would say both, depending on where we happen to be on the path of life.

    This idea (that there is no permanent "good" and "bad" side, but meaningful difference) I also like to read into John 10:9: "Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture."

  • Terry
    Terry

    When we feel miserably locked in the world of "objective facts," a step into contemplative or creative subjectivity can be a liberating experience too...

    I tend to think that the "depth" of the best "spiritual" formulas lies precisely in their ambivalence.

    "Whoever wants to save his life/soul will lose it, whoever loses his life/soul will save it." Is it about losing something outward and concrete (like wealth) to access some "inner" or "spiritual" way of being, or getting rid of a mental representation of self to get "real"? I would say both, depending on where we happen to be on the path of life.

    This idea (that there is no permanent "good" and "bad" side, but meaningful difference) I also like to read into John 10:9: "Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture."

    I would appeal the above.

    This planet we live on works a certain way we cannot escape from. We defy gravity at our own risk.

    Our bodily limits are real enough. We ignore our nature at our own risk.

    There is a certain amount of _____room____for error and ambivalence in our processing IF WE ARE LUCKY!

    The real world does not CONTRADICT its own self. We cannot contradict our own nature. (I mean by this we can't just wish our limits away. We must understand the science of our nature to work around these limits.)

    What separates us from inanimate objects is the Sapient part of the Homo in Homo Sapien.

    Having a map is very handy IF you want to go someplace.

    But, you must know where you are and where North is, first.

    Ambiguity is not something to be embraced, Narkissos.

    Subjectivity is a trap, mostly; a recreational drug at best.

    Clarifying where we are, who we are, what is what and what is not only SOUNDS difficult if we don't improve our skills.

    I think we tend to pacify ourselves by overindulgence in our fat-bellied society with ALL THINGS FANTASTIC from entertainment, television, books, games, music, art, daydreaming.....and....sadly, our KNOWLEDGE BASE.

    We lose the thread leading out of the maze at our own peril!

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