All Things Mystical - Real or Not?

by Sirona 131 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Gill
    Gill

    To have to change the established laws of physics to allow for esp, and all things 'mystical' might well be disturbing to a lot of people.

    As sited earlier, many great scientists have had minds open enough to the possibilities that science as we know it is not necessarily the 'way it is' and because of them we have expanded our understanding and abilities.

    To close our minds due to fear 'of the unknown' is ridiculous for a species such as ours.

    We can easily be side tracked by frauds, but science has many stumbles and fraudsters (ie Japanese bloke or was he Korean, who claimed to have created a human clone) and we don't knock all of science.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Well stated, Gill.

    In reality, I tend to have sympathy for Simon's quite skeptical view of the obvious hoodwinkers. It is so easy to fool people on science nowadays...I read an essay on the lamentable lack of any scientific reason on the part of most everyday americans.

    A case was quoted of a lady who thought that her Television Set would use less electrical power if she tied the AC power cord into a tangle of knots. (well, maybe she sort of had an unwitting point, provided you could get it worked into meaningful coils like Tesla himself - )

    Pursuant to this thread, in my little home Science & Physics library, I have a book "Quantum Questions". It is not about Quantum Physics per se, but rather a series of chapters on some of the great physicists and their views on mysticism. Included are Max Plank, Heisenberg, Einstein, and others...once I get this re-read I will pick a few quotes and stick them onto the bottom of this great thread.

    James

  • Terry
    Terry

    As civilization has advanced, one after another areas of magic, mysticism, superstition and myth have been blown away by rational investigation, testing, measuring, reasoning and recording data.

    The last stand of the "believer" is the miraculous: the as yet unexplained.

    This consists of blindly insisting on the unintelligible! They will tell you you CANNOT KNOW!

    Yet, somehow, they know!

    The Faithful and Discreet Slave KNOWS what you cannot know by yourself. You NEED them. They have the POWER and you do not!

    The Mystic has a source of power you are cut off from and they run a Protection Racket like mobsters in Al Capone's era.

    You must listen and not speak. You must respect and not question. You must obey and not balk. You must pay for their services!

    You must buy their books and speak their language. You must turn away from all others who contradict them and make the skeptics your enemy!

    The mystic is practically a spirit. The flesh is only temporary. For a fee they will instruct you, enlighten you and tell you the "hidden", the "secret" and the sublime. You can attend their seminars, their classes, their Kingdom Halls and run errands for them to achieve the illusory bliss they promise.

    You are not allowed to ask for REASONS nor create arguments designed to elicit INFORMATION containing exact definitions or details!!

    No no no no no....

    That would feed your intelligence, your rationl mind, your consciousness and your powers of discrimination (which you are not allowed to exercise!).

    The MYSTICS create their own language of vague non-meaning. The vocabulary of the Mystic contains words which mean what they want them to mean. Like the Cuckoo bird that lays its eggs in the other bird's nests..the Mystic hatches their progeny in your unconscious and unwitting cooperation. You spread their message by buying in and turning off your "weak" "sinful" "corrupt" senses and by parroting their orthodoxy as if it were gold.

    How to accept Mysticism:

    1.Accept allegations without evidence.

    2.Accept personal experiences instead of proof.

    3.Trust not your 5 senses. Postulate a 6th and use that one!

    4.Claim as knowledge the non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable.

    5.Start using words like "instinct", "intuition", "revelation" or "just knowing". Replace physical reality with "spirit" and "energy".

    6.Give up the One Reality and replace it with some other "reality" wjpse only definition is that it is NOT natural, but, SUPERnatural.

    7.Perceive your new nature, the supernature, with unnatural means such as "prayer", "meditation", "divination", "ritual", contacting spirits.

    8.Become one with the Mystic and his World View by asserting that everything is reducible to one's OWN CONSCIOUSNESS. View your own mind as the True Reality. View the concrete world of dirt, stones, air and physics as mere ILLUSION!

    9. Never view your emotions as involuntary physical sensations triggered by your deeply held VALUES---instead, view your emotions as SOURCES OF TRUTH! (Trust your gut! Not your rational intelligence!)

    10.Proclaim that reality is not only whatever YOU want it to be, but, rely on your consciousness to actually CREATE any reality you choose for it!

    Science is for the short-sighted, non-spiritual man trapped in an illusion of time and space who needs to be liberated by turning inward to his own spirit of awareness.

    The above primer should work nicely for you!

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    The default opposition seems to be: "if it is not cognitively reducible it is nonsense you idiot". What is the mind capable of understanding? It is all a continuum and we are not at the pinnacle (yet). Take an IQ of 50 and try to teach it the Calculus and Quantum Electrodynamics. Good luck. An IQ of 100 will be capable of more, of 150...still more. But some don't get it. They are like a blind man scoffing at the notion of the color red.

    New Mysterianism is a philosophical position proposing that certain problems will never be explained or at the least cannot be explained by the human mind at its current evolutionary stage.....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mysterianism

    BTS

  • Gill
    Gill

    Terry's reply (see above) is really interesting and what I would have believed if I had not begun to look into esoteric beliefs.

    Once I did that, I realised and found to my shock that mysticism, mythology, ancient religions, sciences, etc whatever and everything that we might consider 'borderline' to reality, is in fact at the root of everything we do and have.

    I would like to recommend again, 'The Secret HIstory of the World' by Jonathan Black, if you really want to know why and what and the wherefores of what we do, see and have and even believe as fact around the world.

    I still go 'Wow' from some of the things I have learnt and i have heavily researched Jonathan Black's assertions hoping to find some holes in his assertions.

    Nothing, absolutely nothing that you see in the world is what you think and there for the reasons that you might believe. There are things we have never noticed that mean so much that I cannot begin to tell you.

    Read the book if you really want to 'know' and understand the world we live in and also understand that mysticism that is knocked by many, understandably, but still knocked when it shouldn't be, is at the very root and heart of everything we do and believe.

  • Simon
    Simon
    Actually, Simon, they do. This particular study has documented cases of the instances where there was a non-significant result (conducted by others). Still taking into account these studies and adding them together cumulatively, there is an overall statistically significant result.

    Funny that, when others conduct the experiment then there is a non-significant, i.e. NEGATIVE, result.

    You can't just then add the results from the experiments that you *think* gave you positive ones, that isn't how it works!

    The tests were repeated, they didn't hold up, the science is bogus. Accept it.

    You ask for scientific experiments to support assertions and I provide them. If you can't accept it then that is your error, not mine.

    Actually, I think you'll find that

    a). You haven't provided evidence, see above and previous posts

    b). You are the one that seems to be unable to accept the PROOF and still cling to a BELIEF, which is all this 'mystical' stuff is (in peoples heads)

    I doubt that respected university scientists could give a rats arse what you think they should do with their funding.

    Probably not, but then I haven't written to any suggesting anything so it's a moot point eh?

    Do you think that you can decide what scientific discoveries the world should be focusing on?

    No, but I am free to have an opinion on what is a complete waste of time and money. I think most people, if they had to rank the importance of fields of research, would put this pretty low down ... for me it goes just under 'do worms feel happy', I think that's something we can all agree on is important for humankind to know.

    Rather than welcoming knowledge you seem to want to control what is discovered in case the results upset you. That is intellectually dishonest.

    No, I just think we should hold people's claims to the flame of the scientific process in order to make sure the bogus pseudo-science is burnt and thrown in the trash where it belongs.

    These are of course my opinions, which you asked for. You are of course free to believe in what I think is utter tripe and nonsense if it makes you happy. Just don't tell me it's science when I know it aint.

    Or as Judge Judy says, "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining".

  • Simon
    Simon
    Rather than welcoming knowledge you seem to want to control what is discovered in case the results upset you. That is intellectually dishonest.

    Just so you know, for future reference, that would not be being 'intellectually dishonest' but more likely closed minded (not accepting evidence presented).

    "Intellectual dishonesty is the advocacy of a position which the advocate knows or believes to be false." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_dishonesty)

    This actually is what I think you and most mystic believers are guilty of ... I find it very hard to comprehend that otherwise functioning human beings with some degree of intelligence and no mental issues deep down don't know that this stuff is complete nonsense.

    There must be a gene that for some people converts stories into an enjoyable book-read or movie experience and for others turns them into a belief system.

    It's called the ID2T gene (binary encoded, naturally) LOL

  • zagor
    zagor

    Human brain is a fascinating machine. One thing I find particularly interesting is that experience people describe are very similar to those reported under influence of different drugs or lack of oxygen. For that reason alone I'm incline to believe that also spiritual experiences are a kind of a biological reflex of a human brain. I've had something similar as a young dub while under severe stress, in one moment there was this feeling of peace that came over me and everything seemed alright. Was that something outside of my body or was it just my brain self-protection mechanism that kicked in when things went into overdrive?

  • Sirona
    Sirona
    Funny that, when others conduct the experiment then there is a non-significant, i.e. NEGATIVE, result.

    Actually you are wrong. Not all others got negative results.

    Studies are conducted to include lots of participants and have lots of "trials". Therefore if you test 30 individuals and get a negative result, but test 1000 individuals over numerous trials and get a strong significant result, then the wider study is taken as a more accurate study because it is more thorough.

    In this case, some small studies (negative result) were conducted but the larger and more thorough studies show a significant result. Rather than ignore the studies which did not show results beyond chance, they have added in that data and still found that OVERALL the result is significant.

    You know all this, I suspect, but you can't resist the urge to try and make it look "unscientific".

    Sirona

  • trevor
    trevor

    Sirona

    I prefer the lipstick avatar Your new one is bit mystical.

    As for your thread - I would like to think that there is no such thing as ESP but alas I have had a number of experiences that I cannot ignore.

    So, I have an open mind but keep bouncers at the entrance, to carefully check out ideas before they are allowed in.

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