Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-20-08 WT Study (Presence)

by blondie 35 Replies latest jw friends

  • blondie

    Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-20-08 WT Study (February 15, 2008, pages 21-25 )(PRESENCE)Review comments will be in redWT material from today's WT will be in black
    Quotes from other sources will be in quotes boxes
    w = Watchtower
    g = Awake
    jv = Proclaimers book

    Bible translations
    WT publications
    WT child abuse
    Blood issue
    United Nations

    CHRIST’S PRESENCE—WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU?"What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system things?"--MATT. 24:3

    Opening Comments

    Without knowing the history of this teaching, most jws question it little. If they do, they are quickly squashed. Did you know that the WTS taught that Christ's presence began in 1874 and did not officially change it to 1914 until 1943? Perhaps if you were an adult jw when the Proclaimers book was studied at the TMS you might have remembered it or when you first read that book if you did. I know of 2 jws that left the WTS after reading that info in the Proclaimers book. How many know the Second Adventist influence on Charles Taze Russell? How many jws now do any research on the Greek words discussed here, but outside the WTS publications? I have to admit that even now I don't get much into this knowing my limitations.

    Other WT Comments/Leolaia for this week.

    Q) 1. What interesting question did Jesus' apostles ask him?

    NEARLY two thousand years ago, a question was raised by four of ]esus' apostles in a private conversation with their Master on the Mount of

    Olives. They asked: "When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?" (Matt. 24:3) In that question, the apostles used two very interesting expressions, "your presence" and "the conclusion of the system of things." To what do those expressions refer?

    Look up at least 2 other Bible translations if you can. This site has several.

    The translations that the WTS has used before the NWT:

    Matthew 24:3 (King James Version)

    And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Matthew 24:3 (American Standard Version)

    And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Matthew 24:3 ( Emphatic Diaglott )

    ...Tell us, when these things will be? and What will be the sign of Thy presence, and of the consummation of the Age?

    Or check other Greek lexicons

    Q) 2. What, is the underlying meaning of the word "conclusion"?

    2. To take the second expression first, consider the term "conclusion," the translation of the Greek word syn.te'lei.a. In the New World Translation, this word is consistently rendered "conclusion," whereas a related Greek word, te'los, is translated "end." The difference in the meaning of these two words can be illustrated by describing a talk given at the Kingdom Hall. The conclusion of the talk is the last section, in which the speaker spends a little time reminding the audience of what he has been discussing and then shows how that information applies to them. The end of the talk is when the speaker walks off the platform. In a similar way, Biblically speaking, the term "the conclusion of the system of things" refers to the period of time leading up to and including its end.

    Check Greek words syn.te'lei.a and te'los in a Greek lexicon.

    Also, does the WTS always translate a Greek word into the same English word?

    Is this a good analogy?

    Q)3. What are some of the things that occur during Jesus' presence?
    3 What of the "presence" that the apostles asked about? This is the translation of the Greek word'a.* Christ's pa rou si'a, or presence, started with ]esus' installation as King in heaven in 1914 and continues on to include the "great tribulation," during which he comes to destroy the wicked. (Matt. 24:21) Many different things, including "the last days" of this wicked system of things, the gathering of the chosen ones, and their resurrection to heavenly life, occur during this presence of Jesus. (2 Tim. 3:1; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:15-17; 2 Thess. 2:1) It could be said that the period constituting "the conclusion of the system of things" (syn.te'lei.a) corre- sponds to or runs parallel with the period called Christ's presence (' a).

    * The meaning of' a is seen from the contrast that is made between the "presence" and "absence" of the apostle Paul both at 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11 and at Philippians 2:12. For a detailed discussion, see Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, pages 676-9.

    Has the WTS consistently said that 1914 was the beginning of Christ's presence? If so, then why was the the Watchtower called "the herald of Christ's presence" from 1879 to 1914?

    *** jv p. 724 Publishing The Watchtower ***

    When first produced, in July 1879, it was called Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence. This magazine, which was a champion of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, was published to serve spiritual food to the household of faith. On January 1, 1909, the title was changed to The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, in order to focus attention more clearly on the objective of the magazine. As of January 1, 1939, putting increased emphasis on the fact that Christ was already ruling from heaven as King, the title was altered to read The Watchtower and Herald of Christ’s Kingdom.

    *** w93 1/15 p. 5 ‘Caught Away to Meet the Lord’—How? ***

    The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence to honesthearted students of Bible prophecy that Jesus’ presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914.

    Did the WTS "consistently" teach that Jesus began ruling in 1914 or 1878 or even 1915?

    *** w67 2/15 p. 110 par. 21 Jehovah Makes Full Might Abound ***

    This humiliating blow to Philistine pride has a modern-day parallel. From its first year of publication, in 1879, Zion’s Watch Tower, official journal of the “faithful and discreet slave,” consistently proclaimed the year 1914 as the date for the end of “the Gentile times” and the establishment of God’s kingdom by Christ.

    *** jv chap. 28 pp. 631-632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***

    Something else that was seen as a possible time indicator involved the arrangement that God instituted in ancient Israel for a Jubilee, a year of release, every 50th year. This came after a series of seven 7-year periods, each of which ended with a sabbath year. During the Jubilee year, Hebrew slaves were freed and hereditary land possessions that had been sold were restored. (Lev. 25:8-10) Calculations based on this cycle of years led to the conclusion that perhaps a greater Jubilee for all the earth had begun in the autumn of 1874, that evidently the Lord had returned in that year and was invisibly present, and that “the times of restitution of all things” had arrived.—Acts 3:19-21, KJ.
    Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus’ baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King.

    *** jv chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***

    Extending the parallels further, it was stated that the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. (37 years after Jesus was hailed as king by his disciples when he rode into Jerusalem) might point to 1915 (37 years after 1878) for a culmination of anarchistic upheaval that they thought God would permit as a means for bringing existing institutions of the world to their end. This date appeared in reprints of Studies in the Scriptures. (See Volume II, pages 99-101, 171, 221, 232, 246-7; compare reprint of 1914 with earlier printings, such as the 1902 printing of Millennial Dawn.)

    An Extended Period of Time
    Q) 4 How does Jesus' presence find a parallel in events of Noah's day?

    4 The fact that the word' a refers to an extended period of time harmonizes with what Jesus said with regard to his presence. I (Read Matthew 24:37-39.) Notice that Jesus did not liken his presence to the relatively short period of time during which the Flood occurred in Noah's day. Rather, he compared his presence to the much longer period of time that led up to the Flood. Included therein were Noah's building of the ark and his preaching work, right up until the time that the Flood finally arrived. Those events occurred over many decades. In a similar way, Christ's presence includes the events leading up to and including the great tribulation. -2 Thess.1:6-9.

    Has the WTS really established that 'parousia' means an extended period of time in the first 3 paragraphs? I don't think so.

    So are we to conclude that it will be 120 years from 1914 to 2034 when Armageddon will come?
    Q) 5 How do the words recorded in Revelation chapter 6 indicate that jesus' presence is an extended period of time?

    5. Other Bible prophecies make it evident that Christ's presence refers to an extended period of time and not merely to his coming to destroy the wicked. The book of Revelation portrays Jesus as riding on a white horse and being given .a crown. (Read Revelation 6:1-8.) After being crowned as King in 1914, Jesus is pictured as going "forth conquering and to complete his conquest." The account then shows that he is followed by riders seated on different colored horses. These prophetically represent war, food shortages, and pestilence, all of which have occurred over the extended period of time that is referred to as "the last days." We are seeing the fulfillment of this prophecy in our lifetime.

    Did the WTS teach that 1914 was a beginning or the end of his conquest?

    "But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble"
    (Watch Tower, 15 July 1894, p. 226).

    Didn't these events, war, food shortages, and pestilence find fullfillment between 33 and 70 CE?

    Q) 6 What does Revelation chapter 12 help us to understand about Christ's presence?

    6. Revelation chapter 12 provides further details concerning the establishment of God's Kingdom in heaven. There we read of a battle in the invisible realm. Michael--Jesus Christ in his heavenly position---and his angels fight against the Devil and his demons. As a result, Satan the Devil and his hordes are cast down to the earth. At that point, the account tells us, the Devil has great anger, "knowing he has a short period of time." (Read Revelation 12:7-12.) Clearly, then, the establishment of Christ's Kingdom in heaven is followed by a period of time that is marked by increased "woe" for the earth and its inhabitants.

    Did you see any proof presented that Michael = Jesus? As a jw were you able to PROVE it using the Bible or did you find that you had to rely on many inferences?

    How "clear" has the WTS been about the kingdom starting in 1914?

    Since that time it has been emphatically manifest that the time had come in A.D. 1878 when kingly judgment should begin at the house of God. It is here that 'Rev. 14:14-20' applies, and our Lord is brought to view as the Reaper crowned. The year A.D. 1878, being the parallel of his assuming power and authority in the type, clearly marks the time for the actual assuming of power as King of kings, by our present, spiritual, invisible Lord--the time of his taking to himself his great power to reign, which in the prophecy is closely associated with the resurrection of his faithful, and the beginning of the trouble and wrath upon the nations.
    --The Time Is At Hand, 1907, page 239.

    Q) 7 What does the second psalm speak about, and what opportunity is described therein?
    7 The second psalm likewise speaks prophetically of the installation of Jesus as King upon heavenly Mount Zion. (Read Psalm 2: 5-9; 110:1,2.) However, this psalm also indicates that there is a period of time when earth's rulers, along with their subjects, are given an opportunity to submit to Christ's rule. They are admonished to "exercise insight" and to allow themselves to be "corrected." Yes, during that time "happy are all those taking refuge in him [God] " by serving Jehovah and his appointed King. So, then, a window of opportunity is opened during Jesus' presence in kingly power.-Ps. 2: 10-12.

    Was Jesus installed in 1878 or 1914 or was 1914 the end?

    Happy are only all who are baptized jws in "good standing" the mark mentioned at Ezekiel 9:4-6:

    *** w07 7/1 p. 13 Highlights From the Book of Ezekiel—I ***

    9:3-6. Acquiring the mark—the evidence that we are dedicated, baptized servants of God and that we have the Christian personality—is essential for surviving the “great tribulation.” (Matthew 24:21) Anointed Christians, represented by the man with the secretary’s inkhorn, are taking the lead in doing the marking work, that is, the Kingdom-preaching and disciple-making work. If we want to retain our mark, we must zealously help them in this work.

    *** km 10/87 p. 8 par. 7 Help Others to Dedication and Baptism ***

    Only those ‘marked’ for salvation will survive into Jehovah’s new system. (Ezek. 9:2-6) How happy those who submit to this ‘marking’ for survival will be because of their dedicated relationship with Jehovah God, as symbolized by water baptism!

    *** w89 9/1 p. 19 par. 7 Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium ***

    Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil. (Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Corinthians 4:4) They will make up the “flesh” that Jesus Christ said would be saved through the worst tribulation of all human history.

    Recognizing the Sign
    Q) 8, 9. Who would recognize the sign of Christ’s presence and understand its meaning?

    8. When asked by the Pharisees about the time the Kingdom would come, Jesus answered that it would not come "with striking observableness" from their viewpoint. (Luke 17:20, 21) Unbelievers would not understand. How could they? They did not even recognize Jesus as their future King. So who would both recognize the sign of Christ's presence and understand its significance?

    9. Jesus went on to say that his disciples would see the sign just as clearly as they would see "lightning, by its flashing, [which] shines from one part under heaven to another part." (Read Luke 17:24-29.) It is of interest to note that Matthew 24:23-27 directly links the same point with the sign of Christ's presence.

    Remember that Russell was influenced by Second Adventists who had been disappointed by the "coming" or presence (WTS) not occuring visibly around 1844. This was not something that God dropped into the mind of Russell.

    "unbelievers" are all nonjws and ex-jws and inactive jws (because if they believed they would be active, right?)

    But where is Jesus in the WTS publications? How often is Jesus mentioned as king compared to "Jehovah"?

    Did the WTS see "the sign" clearly?

    1874, 1878, 1914 (the end), 1915 (the end), 1920, 1925, 1975, (1984), (1994).

    The Generation Seeing the Sign
    Q) 10, 11. (a) What explanation was previously given concerning the "generation" mentioned at Matthew 24:34? (b) Who would Jesus' disciples have no doubt understood to be included in that generation"?

    10. Previously, this journal has explained that in the first century, "this generation" mentioned at Matthew 24:34 meant "the contemporaneous generation of unbelieving Jews."* That explanation seemed reasonable because all other recorded uses that Jesus made of the term "generation" had a negative connotation, and in most cases, Jesus used a negative adjective, such as "wicked," to describe the generation. (Matt. 12:39; 17: 17; Mark 8:38) Thus, it was felt that in the modern-day fulfillment, Jesus was referring to the wicked "generation" of unbelievers who would see both the features that would characterize "the conclusion of the system of things" (syn.te'lei.a) and the system's end (te'los).

    11. It is true that when Jesus used the word "generation" negatively, he was speaking to or about the wicked people of his day. But was that necessarily true of his statement recorded at Matthew 24:34? Recall that four of Jesus' disciples had approached him "privately." (Matt. 24:3) Since Jesus did not use negative qualifiers when speaking to them about "this generation," the apostles would no doubt have understood that they and their fellow disciples were to be part of the "generation" that would not pass away "until all these things [would] occur."

    * See The Watchtower; November 1, 1995, pages 11-15,19,30,31.

    So how did the WTS know what something in the Bible meant in the first century? "seemed reasonable" to whom? "it was felt" by whom; who only is allowed to make doctrinal explanations; the rank and file, the few thousand anointed, or the smaller number of anointed male jws selected by the WT GB, or just one or two on the GB?

    Why has it taken 129 years for the "spirit-anointed" WTS/FDS/GB to come to the conclusion that "this generation" in Mt 24:34 is not negative.

    "no doubt"--another weasel word phrase leaving the WTS room to switch their "interpretation" again in the future.

    Q) 12. What does the context reveal concerning those to whom Jesus was referring when he used the term "generation"?

    12 On what basis may we draw that conclusion? By carefully considering the context. As recorded at Matthew 24:32, 33, Jesus said: "Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors." (Compare Mark 13:28-30; Luke 21:30-32.) Then, at Matthew 24:34, we read: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these these things occur."

    How many jws realize that the last time the WTS discussed this was in 1999, 8 years ago? Old time jws have had a hard time letting go of the 1914 generation explanation; some not even comprehending it changed.

    "carefully considering the context"--how often is the scripture cited is only one verse? How many jws do more than use what is called a "proof text" and consider the whole chapter, even the whole book?

    Q) 13, 14. Why can we say that the "generation that Jesus referred to must have been his disciples?

    13 Jesus said that it was his disciples, soon to be anointed with holy spirit, who should be able to draw certain conclusions when they saw "all these things" occur. So Jesus must have been referring to his disciples when he made the statement: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."

    14. Unlike unbelievers, Jesus' disciples would not only see the sign but also understand its significance. They would "learn" from the features of that sign and "know" their true meaning. They would fully appreciate that "he is near at the doors." While it is true that both unbelieving Jews and faithful anointed Christians saw a limited fulfillment of Jesus' words in the first century, only his anointed followers back then could learn from these events--could understand the true meaning of what they saw.

    "should be able to draw certain conclusions"--so is the rank and file jw allowed to draw these conclusions or only what the WTS/FDS/GB says is true?

    "unbelievers"--everyone but jws in "approved" standing in the WTS

    Has the WTS really understood "the true meaning of what they saw"? 1874, 1878, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1920, 1925, 1940's, 1975, (1984), (1994),

    dates to Google and see what the WTS has flipflopped over in the past.

    Q) 15. (a) Who make up the modern-day "generation" that Jesus referred to? (b) Why are we not able to calculate the exact length of "this generation"? (See the box on page 25.)

    15 Those without spiritual understanding today have felt that there has been no "striking observableness" with regard to the sign of Jesus' presence. They reason that everything is continuing on as it did in the past. (2 Pet. 3:4) On the other hand, Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class, have recognized this sign as if it were a flash of lightning and have understood its true meaning. As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day "generation" of contemporaries that will not pass away "until all these things occur."* This suggests that some who are Christ's anointed brothers will still be alive on earth when the foretold great tribulation begins.

    "those without spiritual understanding today"--all but a few select jws on the GB today. All the anointed are not solicited for their input on "understanding" certainly not women.

    Based on the changes made by the WTS on this and other doctrine, the "flash of lightning" seems to have blinded them to what the Bible meant.

    "This suggests"--another weasel phrase the WTS uses to leave the door open to changes, even 180 degree changes in the future.

    If some of the anointed will still be alive on earth when the great tribulation starts and many are in their 50's, when will the marriage of the bride and Christ take place in heaven? Will these people leave out their natural life span or will God take them to heaven earlier? Has the WTS addressed this issue? Does that mean the marriage can take place without some of the bride at the wedding?

    * The time period during which "this generation" lives seems to correspond to the period covered by the first vision in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 1:10-3:22) This feature of the Lord's day extends from 1914 until the last of the faithful anointed ones dies and is resurrected.-See Revelation-Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 24, paragraph 4.

    Box (page 25): Can We Calculate the Length of "This Generation"??
    The word "generation" usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event. For example, Exodus 1 :6 tells us: "Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation." Joseph and his brothers varied in age, but they shared a common experience during the same time period. Included in "that generation" were some of Joseph's brothers who were born before him. Some of these outlived Joseph. (Gen. 50:24) Others of "that generation," such as Benjamin, were born after Joseph was born and may have lived on after he died. So when the term "generation" is used with reference to people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated except that it does have an end and would not be excessively long. Therefore, by using the term "this generation," as recorded at Matthew 24:34, Jesus did not give his disciples a formula to enable them to determine when "the last days" would end. Rather, Jesus went on to emphasize that they would not know "that day and hour."-2 Tim. 3:1; Matt. 24:36.

    Do you see much research presented here or just a statement that must be accepted?

    "would not be excessively long"--certainly not longer than the 120 years given to Noah and his generation, right? 1879 to 2008 is 129 years--do you hear the clock ticking for the rank and file jw?

    "Jesus did not give his disciples a formula"--but before 1995 many jws applied the "rule" of 70 or 80 years being a generation to a starting pointof 1914, bringing them down to 1994 as the latest date. Is it no surprise that the WTS changed that doctrine in 1995? But it is no surprise that the WTS used these statements just before 1975, a date that was touted as the possible "end." (see 1925)

    *** w67 12/15 p. 751 par. 28 “In All the Nations the Good News Has to Be Preached First” ***

    But that race or generation would by now be a race or generation over nineteen hundreds of years old. The life length of such a generation would not be a brief time, and so it would not be confined to a limited time of tremendous urgency. However, the expression “this generation” was used by Jesus to mark a very limited period of time, the life-span of members of a generation of people living during the time that certain epoch-making events occurred. According to Psalm 90:10, that life-span could be of seventy years or even of eighty years.

    *** w68 12/1 p. 715 Putting First the Preaching of the Good News ***

    A generation, according to Psalm 90:10, is from seventy to eighty years. The generation that witnessed the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 does not have many more years left.—Luke 21:24, 32-36.

    "Keep on the Watch"
    Q) 16. What must all of Christ's disciples do?

    16 More is needed, though, than merely recognizing the sign. Jesus went on to say: "What I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch." (Mark 13:37) This is of utmost importance to all of us today whether of the anointed or of the great crowd. Nine decades have passed since Jesus was installed as King in heaven in 1914. As challenging as it may be, we must prove ourselves ready and keep on the watch. Understanding that Christ is present invisibly in Kingdom power helps us to do that. It also alerts us to the fact that soon he will come to destroy his enemies" at an hour that [we] do not think likely."-Luke 12:40.

    "nine decades have passed since...1914"--how long have many jws been waiting? What about those in their 80's like my parents and their siblings? They never expected to die in "this system" and express that? The WTS still makes this promise.

    *** w07 5/15 p. 26 par. 2 The Resurrection—Is It Real to You? ***

    For some, though, death is less certain than many today realize. Why? Because an unnumbered “great crowd” will survive “the great tribulation,” soon to come. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14) They will live on afterward, with eternity in view. Thus, death is no certainty for them. Moreover, “death is to be brought to nothing.”—1 Corinthians 15:26.

    "SOON he will come"--VERY SOON NOW

    *** w07 3/15 p. 25 par. 18 Angels—How They Affect Mankind ***

    Angels will serve as God’s executional forces in the near future. Very soon now, Jesus will come “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire.”

    *** w07 8/1 p. 11 Highlights From the Book of Ezekiel—II ***

    Very soon now, all those who profane God’s holy name will be destroyed.

    But the WTS plays both sides of this chastising the rank and file for hoping for "Paradise soon."

    *** w99 7/15 p. 18 par. 9 Anchored by Hope, Impelled by Love ***

    A few dedicated Christians in some parts of the world appear to have reefed the sails of their ship of faith. The ship is still afloat, but instead of forging ahead in full faith, they have adopted a cruising speed. Drawn by the hope of “Paradise soon,” some were prepared to spare no efforts to attain it—zealous in the preaching work and regular in attendance at all meetings, assemblies, and conventions. Now thinking that the realization of their hopes is farther off than they anticipated, they have lowered the price they are willing to pay. This is evident in reduced preaching activity, irregularity at meetings, and willingness to miss parts of assembly or convention programs. Others are devoting more time to recreation and to obtaining material comforts. These facts lead us to consider what should be the driving force in our lives in line with our dedication to Jehovah.

    Should our zeal in his service be dependent on the hope of “Paradise soon”?
    Q) 17. How should this understanding make us feel and what should we be determined to do?

    17 Our understanding of the meaning of Christ's presence helps to intensify our feelings of urgency. We know that Jesus is already present and has been reigning invisibly as King in heaven since 1914. Soon he will come to destroy the wicked and bring about vast changes to this entire globe. We should therefore be more determined than ever to take an active part in the work that Jesus foretold when he said: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached In all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end [te'los] will come."-Matt. 24:14.

    "King in heaven since 1914"--or was that 1874?

    "SOON he will come to destroy the wicked"--all 6.5 billion non jws including their minor children, even if they have not received a personal witness but are condemned to eternal death, no resurrection.

    *** w00 1/15 p. 13 par. 17 “Keep on the Watch” ***

    Fifth, we see a global preaching work being accomplished, which Jesus said would take place just before the end of this system. Jesus stated: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14) Today, that prophecy is in the course of fulfillment on an unprecedented scale. True, untouched territories still exist, and it may be that in Jehovah’s due time, a large door leading to greater activity will open. (1 Corinthians 16:9) Nevertheless, the Bible does not state that Jehovah will wait until every individual on earth has received a personal witness. Rather, the good news must be preached to Jehovah’s satisfaction. Then the end will come.—Compare Matthew 10:23.

    How Would You Answer?

    How do we know that Jesus' presence is an extended period of time?

    Who recognize the sign of Jesus' presence and understand what it means?

    The modern-day generation mentioned at Matthew 24:34 is made up of whom?

    Why are we unable to calculate the exact length of "this generation"?


    I wonder how the rank and file will react to the change in the "explanation" of Matthew 24:34? Will they see it as an explanation for the increase in the numbers of those claiming to be "anointed"? Will then the WTS be able to always point to anointed jws and say the end has not come and gone because all the anointed are dead? Having lifted the 1935 cutoff date, how many more will "partake" each year?

    Please go to Leolaia's comments above. Blondie has never been much for WT "prophecy." It does show that the WTS has the ability to "adjust" their teachings, and no one can challenge it without being labeled as "apostate" or "dangerous."

    Love, Blondie

  • Ruth Eeker
    Ruth Eeker

    HI Blondie,

    I always enjoy your commentary, thank you!

    In your last comments, mentioning how the file and rank will respond to this new "teaching"?.

    My spouse said I should say something to my family about this WT study and the "change".

    But I know for a fact that they don't do deep research and they don't understand the "old" teaching
    enough already so this "new" stuff is just going to be even more things they don't completely
    understand but of course its from the Governing Body so what ever they say they accept.

    That's one of the biggest problems in reasoning with these people, majority of JW's don't do
    proper bible study hence when you try to bring bible truth and common sense to them they just don't get it
    and of course Don't want to even hear it!

    It's frustrating because seeing the two commentaries on the study just show how insane the WT teaching is!
    But trying to tell any JW about just...uhh..useless.

    I can hear my family and friends comments:

    "well the WT article has laid it out very clearly...maybe you should go over it again"
    "Obviously you're heart is in the wrong place if you're looking what is wrong in the article."

    and of course,
    "you should go to the elders and ask them these questions"

    As i said to my spouse...I'm not going to bother opening that can of worms! lol

    Anyways, sorry for the rant. Thank you again Blondie.


  • bennyk

    Thanks for your commentary, Blondie.

    Thus, it was felt that in the modern-day fulfillment, Jesus was referring to the wicked "generation" of unbelievers who would see both the features that would characterize "the conclusion of the system of things" (syn.te'lei.a) and the system's end (te'los).

    I have always loved how the Watch Tower Society switches to the passive voice when discussing the now-rejected teachings of the past -- almost as though some third party were somehow responsible, and the Society were merely an unwitting, innocent bystander. Why can't they write something a bit more direct (and honest): e.g. "We previously taught unequivocally in our exclusive, official capacity as the sole channel between God and men a doctrine which we are now changing and which you are henceforth forbidden to believe. Believe the new teaching! Or else! (Until the next time we change it.)"

  • OnTheWayOut

    I feel a bit unfaithful to you as I used up so many of my comments on V's guest thread with Leolaia.

    Anyway, I love this statement about para. 3 and the followup you did with references:

    Has the WTS consistently said that 1914 was the beginning of Christ's presence? If so, then why was the the Watchtower called "the herald of Christ's presence" from 1879 to 1914?

    Great opening comments, also. Especially this:

    Did you know that the WTS taught that Christ's presence began in 1874 and did not officially change it to 1914 until 1943?

    Most JW's (I was one of them) had no idea about the first teachings of Christ's presence and why they
    expected the end in 1914 because Christ had already been around for 40 years (the general definition of
    the length of a generation).

  • oompa

    Tag...great comments Blondie............oompa

  • bronzefist

    Thanks Blondie.


  • WTWizard

    A whole Washtowel article, a whole hour of wasted time at the Kingdumb Hell, just to tell us that we cannot calculate a "generation" by length and to tell us that it might be the anointed? That is going to make it indefinite--it could be a googolplex of years in the future and still be on time?

    That's a long time to be screeching around peddling Washtowel magazines, and going to boasting sessions. Better to blow the whole thing off.

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Thank you Blondie.

    Will you be doing a few more in the future now that "V" is bowing out of the written comment arena?


  • Quandry

    Well, first let me say that although many comment to you on how much they enjoy your "review" of the WT, I never read them in their entirety because I just no longer wanted to read an article from the WT magazine.

    But!!!! The word PRESENSE intrigued me. So I read this one.

    It is surprising that they even want to go there anymore, after all the changes in generation. I sat through the 95 change looking at the others around me in the KHall, wondering how they could have those blank looks on their faces, when this was the biggest thing in years, or so I thought. I mean, after having them make me "confident" that those who were alive and at an age of understanding in 1914, and then, those merely alive in 1914 would be here to see the big A, you'd think they wouldn't want to "clarify" but stay away from this issue.

    But then this:

    Those without spiritual understanding today have felt that there has been no "striking observableness" with regard to the sign of Jesus' presence. They reason that everything is continuing on as it did in the past. (2 Pet. 3:4) On the other hand, Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class, have recognized this sign as if it were a flash of lightning and have understood its true meaning

    Well, obviously everyone else is stupid for not having the correct understanding, or the TRUE MEANING as the "modern-day John class; however, it is obvious that THEY THEMSELVES ARE CHANGING THEIR UNDERSTANDING, YET ALWAYS STATING THEY KNOW THE TRUE MEANING!!!

    Does anyone else see the UNMITIGATED GALL in this??????

  • blondie

    Hi Ruth,

    You have it:

    I can hear my family and friends comments:
    "well the WT article has laid it out very clearly...maybe you should go over it again"
    "Obviously you're heart is in the wrong place if you're looking what is wrong in the article."
    and of course,
    "you should go to the elders and ask them these questions"

    I remember my blinded days...I never really took the time to do the in depth research...I assumed that they couldn't be deliberately lying, right?

    Hi bennyk,

    I have always loved how the Watch Tower Society switches to the passive voice when discussing the now-rejected teachings of the past --

    Even as a "faithful" jw, I wondered why they did that, as if we didn't know they were the ones with the only authority. I learned in school to avoid the passive voice and couldn't believe that this was an accident.

    Hey, OTWO, I know my comments aren't that in depth. I wasn't convinced of the hypocrisy of the WTS by its doctrines but because of its lack of love, It is possible to miss the understanding of a prophecy, but how "educated" do you have to be to know how to have and show "real" love?

    Thanks, oompa and bronzefist.

    Hey WTWizard, an hour will probably be too long for the rank and file and their eyes will glaze over by the 4th paragraph.

    Hello, open mind,

    I will with the assistance of another JWDr be posting the text of the WT study each week. My comments may be more abbreviated though. I noticed that some missed the text comments and decided that I could do this with some help.

    Hi Quandry, it is hard to understand why anyone should put their trust in the WTS with its ever-changing doctrines. Can you imagine living between 1967 and 1980 when transplants were forbidden, seeing a family member die, and then having them reverse themselves?

    Love, Blondie

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