The Death Penalty? What do you think?

by Country Girl 101 Replies latest jw friends

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  sammielee24

  Actually, the U.S. prison system is the country’s largest source of sanctioned “free” labor. “Free” in the sense that the inmates are paid significantly substandard wages (in Cali, $.30 to $.95 per hour, after deductions - http://www.pia.ca.gov/), if anything at all (but not “free” if you count what tax payers pay to have them incarcerated). Each state has its own Prison Industry organization

  Prison is big business. The USA has more people incarcerated than any other country in the entire world. If you count the funds it costs to shelter, feed, defend, guard and treat the imprisoned, the cost if phenomenal. If you start reducing sentences for crimes like drugs, petty theft etc, then you reduce the need for such a big business which in turn affects all the corporations that funnel goods and services through the system. I'm not sure of your statement about it being the largest source of sanctioned 'free' labor since the payment for that labor is most likely paid for through government funding in the form of subsidies. In addition, I'm going to assume that the State picks up the medical costs for each prisoner and that the system is placed inside the workers compensation parameters for those injured on the job. This would mean that the payment received for each inmate therefore, would not be substandard wages but instead welfare. sammieswife.
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  AGuest

  I'm not sure of your statement about it being the largest source of sanctioned 'free' labor since the payment for that labor is most likely paid for through government funding in the form of subsidies. In addition, I'm going to assume that the State picks up the medical costs for each prisoner and that the system is placed inside the workers compensation parameters for those injured on the job. This would mean that the payment received for each inmate therefore, would not be substandard wages but instead welfare.

  Thus, my statement:

  not “free” if you count what tax payers pay to have them incarcerated

  I was responding to a comment that seemed to indicate that all convicts pretty much sit around and do nothing. Which is not accurate. The "cost" is huge, I have NO problem admitting. But there are those who think that a lot of folks are in prison... innocently so... in order to provide this particular labor force. Maybe not those going in today, but certainly a host of those going in prior to the past 10-15 years. Which is another perspective... and something to think about.

  I know, I know... many of "us" won't agree. But most of "us" don't agree on issues like this, anyway, unless and until they look into the real history of a matter such as this... which most of "us" won't... because, well, (1) it doesn't really apply to "our" lives, (2) "they're" all guilty anyway, and (3) "we" simply cannot (won't?) believe that "our" system would in fact do something like that. Addressing the latter, I would say that most of "us" also didn't believe the WTBTS could be the fake it was, either... when we had our faith in it.

  Perhaps some of "us" have actually swallowed a more purple pill (which allows us to see what we want to... and not see what we don't want to)... rather than the "red" one "we" claim. You know, so that "we" can hang out somewhere between what is true and real... and what is not.

  Anyway... something to consider.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA, on my own, still
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  sammielee24

  But most of "us" don't agree on issues like this, anyway, unless and until they look into the real history of a matter such as this... which most of "us" won't... because, well, (1) it doesn't really apply to "our" lives, (2) "they're" all guilty anyway, and (3) "we" simply cannot (won't?) believe that "our" system would in fact do something like that. Addressing the latter, I would

  For the record - I don't believe that every person put in prison is guilty. I think there are motives behind some sentences, as well as a certain amount of incompetence and/or prejudice - and I'm not speaking specifically of color or race but in general. I also don't believe that some sentences fit the crime but none of us can really ever agree on what constitutes a crime - violence or drug possession? Growing a weed outside your door or robbing a store with a gun? Robbing your employees of their pension while you build a 10 million dollar home or laying off 3,000 people while you receive a 30 million dollar check for your hard work - some might say that is equally criminal and beyond greed. On the other hand, I don't think the guy who brutally murdered the family in Oregon and then kidnapped those 2 little kids, raping them both until one died - should even have the option of using his hands to do work in prison even if it is considered 'substandard wages'. I think most people in the USA don't have so much trust in the judicial system that they blindly believe everything they are told ....sammieswife.
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  BurnTheShips

  Burn, you surprise me. We don't always agree but I thought you were a little brighter than the "Consistent Ethic...." etc philosophy. It is total feel good pablum, it doesn't even recognize the reality of life and death in the natural world. This is pure lotus position posturing while looking out at the ocean and having some nice grass.

  By the way, you asked me a question about my definition of "justice". Well, I know it when I see it, but I damn sure know that the value of an innocent human life can only begin to be balanced against the life of the one who stole it. Anything less is not real justice. Slipping away in a lethal coma is better than what the innocent had to experience in their last terrified moments.

  Just coming back for another one. Hey genius, I don't trust our justice system because I don't trust the gov't. You want to geve them the right to hang who they please?
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  FlyingHighNow

  Prison is big business. The USA has more people incarcerated than any other country in the entire world. If you count the funds it costs to shelter, feed, defend, guard and treat the imprisoned, the cost if phenomenal.

  Some things to keep in mind. There are states where prisoners earn zero wages for the work that they do. Florida is one of them. In many prisons, the food budgets are not used to feed prisoners nutritious foods. They are fed rotted cold cuts, moldy bread, etc. while corrupt prison officials use the moneys for themselves. Prisoners do not receive decent medical or dental care. Often times the clinics consist of a locked rooms with no beds or cots where sick inmates are sent just to sit on the floor for hours, even days at a time in the dark with no meals. I've read several books about different prisons around the country. Very rarely is there a bonafide rehabilition program in place. Basically, people are sent to prison and learn to be more hardened criminals.

  Those of you who are parents and grandparents, ask yourselves, if my child or grandchild were on death row, how would I honestly feel? I can say that I would not want for a child of mine to be executed.

  I don't feel sad when a known, cold blooded killer is put to death. I recall one from Indiana who had picked up a young mother and he two small children. They were stranded by the interstate when he happened by. He stopped and offered "help". He drove them to a lake, raped the mother in front of her babies, then threw them off in the lake to drown. He killed the mother. I can't recall if it was before or after the deaths of her children. When asked for his last words, the young man stated he was glad to be put to death as he did not feel sorry for what he had done and would only do it again if given a second chance. I didn't feel sorry to see him executed. Still, I wonder how this man's family felt about his execution. And then there are some who are executed who do express remorse.
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  sammielee24

  Those of you who are parents and grandparents, ask yourselves, if my child or grandchild were on death row, how would I honestly feel? I can say that I would not want for a child of mine to be executed.

  ..but on the flip side - if it were my little baby girl at 4 years old that was picked up, brutally raped repeatedly and then laid in the ground alive while someone buried her.....I know I'd crave the death penalty. As much as the offenders family want them to live - the victims and their families wanted their loved ones to live also. I'm not even certain that I could bear living with the guilt and shame that my child had committed such a heinous crime, ripping out the heart of another family and crushing their dreams, their lives and I know I would question wether I had the right to be so selfish in demanding my own child live while theirs lay in the ground. If it were a crime of passion as some crimes are, not premeditated, I would defintely think differently but in crimes where people are stalked, kidnapped, tortured and murdered for me, its a whole other ball game. I myself would much prefer that any person convicted of a violent crime resulting in death (excluding self defense/accidental/manslaughter) be given a hearing at which the victims families decide the punishment ie the death penalty or life sentencing. Then there should be a cooling off period of about 2 years at which point the familiy would reconvene and make their final decision. During those 2 years, it would allow for any communication between the offender or the offenders family to occur and that may change the initial decision, but in the end, I believe it should be the victims family that decides.

  Agreed some prisons are worse than others, but in comparison, there are many that do provide dental and medical care - more than some people who have never commited a crime will recieve from the State. There ae some prisons where an inmate can get a college degree, as well as rehabilitation if needed. Inmates receive specialist care in some states - cardiac care etc.

  I also think that there should be strict consistent rules about the conditions and guidelines for inmates and those responsible for those standards should be held accountable on penalty of incarceration themselves. There are too many people held in jail and abused by guards out of control and everybody looks the other way - far too many I think. I also think that throwing a drug addict or drunk in with someone who blew someones brains out in a gang fight, is not the way to go - use the old prisons they close down and that are empty and put these people in forced rehab and behaviour modification, give those people a chance to sit in a classroom and you have a better chance of productive human being entering the population again. It could go and on .......sammieswife.
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  owenfieldreams

  Generally, I am against the death penalty, just like I am against abortion--both involve humans taking other human life. I might make one exception, though, for serious crimes against small children, such as rape and/or murder.
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  FlyingHighNow

  Agreed some prisons are worse than others, but in comparison, there are many that do provide dental and medical care - more than some people who have never commited a crime will recieve from the State. There ae some prisons where an inmate can get a college degree, as well as rehabilitation if needed. Inmates receive specialist care in some states - cardiac care etc.

  Most, the majority, of America's prisons are hell holes. It is rare that prisoners get adequate medical or dental care. Most of the time, if they get it at all, it's deplorable in quality. Those inmates who get college degrees do it with correspondence courses and hard work. They don't get to leave to go to Harvard or even Community College. And I'd think everyone would be happy to see these men and women working to get degrees. Please educate yourself on the deplorable conditions of our prisons. Many of the people sent there do not deserve this kind of answer for their "crimes."

  If a person steals something, what good does it do to throw him/her in jail? Make the person work to pay back what was stolen and then some... and to the victim. Violent crimes? I can see prison being a place to send the offenders to keep them away from the rest of us, but many of the crimes people go to prison for do not merit that kind of punishment.
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  sammielee24

  If a person steals something, what good does it do to throw him/her in jail? Make the person work to pay back what was stolen and then some... and to the victim. Violent crimes? I can see prison being a place to send the offenders to keep them away from the rest of us, but many of the crimes people go to prison for do not merit that kind of punishment.

  That is exactly what I said - I don't believe in the prison system as it currently sits for all crime. I definitely see theft as much different than murder - which again, is what I said. I still stand by my opinion though that I'm not sure the rights of the offender family should trump the rights of the victims family in cases of murder. People are very different. Some will forgive the offender and wish a life sentence - others may not and those people might only get closure for their lives when the offender is dead him/her self. It should be their call.

  As for the deplorable conditions - I can only base my opinion on those people that I know that have been in jail/prison and/or through the judicial system itself, combined with news reports or documentaries that I see. Not all of those reports provide a lot of detail and it might not be balanced but it is all that I have to go on. Most certainly as I said - I do not believe that petty crime such as theft and drug use etc should lead to prison, nor do I agree with prisoner abuse, rape, gang activity or any other violence inside that we all know occurs. By the same token I am against privatization of any jail or prison system, simply because in a for profit system, the increase of inmates = more dollars, less food and medicine with a bottom line of profit. The USA now has the highest rate in the world with 1/100 people expected to serve or serving time.

  sammieswife.
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  FlyingHighNow

  Sammie, like most things in the USA, the prison system is too big, complex and corrupt to easily remedy the situation. And you're right in that it's big business. I like Father Guido Sarducci's Five Minute University sketch. Business degree? He says, "Buy something, sell it for more." Big business runs our country. The few elite need to keep their lifestyles. They are parasites and the prison system is one host off which they feed.