What do we have to do to get Gods' Attention

by LouBelle 87 Replies latest jw friends

Galileo

Almost every (if not every) geologist will tell you that the salt in the oceans did not originate there but came from the salt in the earth (i.e., "the salt of the earth"), whether washed downstream from higher regions (during a substantial rain - hmmmmm), or from beneath the ocean floor. They will also tell you that ALL water contains salt (or, "salts"); it's just that "fresh" water contains substantially less than "salt" water.
It's good to know that you accept the science of geology. So I assume that you also accept that this happened hundreds of millions of years ago, and the hypothesis that it happened within the last 5000 is entirely impoosible. I would hate to think that you are just cherry picking.
AGuest

May you have peace!
So I assume that you also accept that this happened hundreds of millions of years ago, and the hypothesis that it happened within the last 5000 is entirely impoosible.
I accept that both are errors. One is way too long (somehow the "dating" methods are not as accruate as folks think they are, but they'll figure this out in, say, another 20 years or so); and the other is too short ("a day is AS a thousand years," is NOT the same as "a day IS a thousand years.")
Peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
toreador

Hello AGuest,
Why did God sentence Adam AND Adam's innocent children, who did not CHOOSE to disobey God, to death, only to have to undo the curse he himself imposed in the first place? Is this not God working against his own judgement and pronouncement of a death sentence? Since when does a Just God have the innocent pay the price for the guilty? How can someone who ate a piece of fruit against someones wishes pass this one act of disobedience to millions of innocent children? Is this love if a judge has the power to forgive with simply a word require a blood payment from an innocent to pay a price for a crime they did not commit. The whole mosaic law code where millions of animals had their throats cut and their blood splattered all over the altar as a sacrifice to a God who seemed to enjoy seeing his creation kill and blood spilled doesnt make sense to me anymore. What does God want with all this death and blood as payment. Flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven. What does God need blood and the needless killing of animals as some sort of mideival primitive sacrifice? Why did they need to do it to appease God and logically how does it make God happy or put him in a forgiving frame of mind. Was it to teach us that we can confer the fault of our inherited sinful nature onto an animal or someone other human, the some other human being God own son, or himself, if trinitarian?
If my neighbor across the street started slitting animals throats and splattering blood all around and burning the fat up on an altar to his God in his front yard, I would be just a little concerned for my safety, and wonder what is wrong with this guy or gal.
As the title would suggest, maybe we are not killing enough animals to get God's attention. How many thousands of sheep and cattle were slaughtered at the inaugeration of Soloman's temple?
Tor
AGuest

May you have peace!
I will try to respond to your questions as the Spirit permits and to the best of my ability:
Why did God sentence Adam AND Adam's innocent children, who did not CHOOSE to disobey God, to death, only to have to undo the curse he himself imposed in the first place?
Actually, this is a HUGE error: GOD... did not sentence ANYONE to ANYTHING. This error has its origin in the false believe that God "forbade" Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad. He did not. He simply WARNED them of what would happen if they did eat. The "sentence" was imposed by the one to whom Adam sold himself and his "innocent" children to: Death.
GOD... the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... is the One who sent the RANSOM Death required. He sent His SON... my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... to BUY US BACK... from Death. Adam made a deal with the Devil; Christ paid the price of it.
Is this not God working against his own judgement and pronouncement of a death sentence?
If what you stated was true, perhaps; however, it is NOT true. You are simply believing a falsehood, having put your faith and belief in a false account of what occurred and why.
Since when does a Just God have the innocent pay the price for the guilty?
A JUST God does not. Nor does a RIGHTEOUS God. And the Most Holy One of Israel IS just... AND righteous. And it is inexcusable that we, puny earthling man, continue to attribute to Him unrighteousness... which many do because they believe a lie. Folks really need to STOP doing that... and, instead, seek the TRUTH.
How can someone who ate a piece of fruit against someones wishes pass this one act of disobedience to millions of innocent children?
Easily: God did not wish Adam or Eve to eat (thus, they ate against His wishes, yes) because He knew that if they did, they would die. So, He warned them NOT to eat. They disobeyed the warning... and ate. Now, Eve was tricked into eating; Adam, however, was not. Adam SOLD himself... AND his progeny... TO Death on the basis that he COULD eat... and NOT die - eat and live. Be "like" God, KNOWING good (life)... AND bad (death). Unfortunately, the deal with Death was a sham: Adam ate, but Death DIDN'T loose its hold on him... NOR on his progeny. Thus, Adam died... and so do his children.
Is this love if a judge has the power to forgive with simply a word require a blood payment from an innocent to pay a price for a crime they did not commit?
No, it is not love, if that were the case. But, again, you assume in error. First, assuming God as that "judge," there was not the "power to forgive with simply a word." The universal LAW was that blood had to be poured out (i.e., "unless blood is poured out, there is no forgiveness of sins.") This law existed even before the earth was created. It is why Abel made animal sacrifices.
Second, Adam didn't ASK to be forgiven, nor did he offer a sacrifice to atone so the he could BE forgiven. In fact, he didn't even ACKNOWLEDGE that he had sinnned. Instead, he first tried to blame God ("the woman YOU gave me...") and THEN he tried to throw Eve under the bus ("SHE gave me and I ate"). At NO time did Adam say, "Yes, okay, you warned me, but I didn't listen - now please forgive me and wipe the slate clean." He had only need ASK... only submit himself "prodigally"... and it WOULD have been given him. God would have provided the sacrifice (as He has done for US) and Adam's sin would have been cleansed and forgiven.
But, in his own arrogance and refusal to be ACCOUNTABLE, Adam didn't do that... because, in HIS mind, HE didn't DO anything wrong. No, everyone else did it: he was just an innocent, ignorant, poor little ad-ham, and, well, had no choice, really. The TRUTH, however, is that unlike Eve... who was tricked... he DID make the choice.
The whole mosaic law code where millions of animals had their throats cut and their blood splattered all over the altar as a sacrifice to a God who seemed to enjoy seeing his creation kill and blood spilled doesnt make sense to me anymore. What does God want with all this death and blood as payment? Flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven. What does God need blood and the needless killing of animals as some sort of mideival primitive sacrifice? Why did they need to do it to appease God and logically how does it make God happy or put him in a forgiving frame of mind. Was it to teach us that we can confer the fault of our inherited sinful nature onto an animal or someone other human, the some other human being God own son, or himself, if trinitarian?
First, the animal sacrifices were in place of human sacrifices. And, like Christ, the animals gave their lives willingly. For us. As they do now... when we use them for food and warmth. Why do they do this willingly? Because UNLIKE US... they have faith in the resurrection. They KNOW that the Most Holy One of Israel will keep His promise to them... and restore them. UNLIKE US... they understand that THIS life... is NOT the "reality," but merely a REFLECTION of the reality.
Second, you have been misled: It is not God who "wants" all this blood. This is simply a matter of the universal law of atonement: the life... is IN the blood. And BLOOD... atones for sin. Life... for Death. Because, "the last enemy," Death... REQUIRES lives... in order to exist. Christ is the Chief Agent of Life... God. Thus, HE leads people to LIFE - God. Satan... is the chief agent... of Death. Thus, HE leads people TO Death.
Like any "living" thing, in order for Death to live... it must FEED. Eat. The "food" that Death "eats"... is earthly lives. Animal, plant... human. Adam sold himself... and his children... INCLUDING you and me... as a slave... TO DEATH. In order to SELL something to someone, that someone has to have a PRICE. Death... has a PRICE: life. Therefore, Death's PRICE... WAGE... in exchange for loosing Adam after he "knew" bad (death) was Adam's life... AND his progeny's ("I'll eat and then I'll know what it is to die - I'll know bad - but YOU promise to not hold me. In exchange, I will become YOUR servant, me AND my children"). THAT is what occurred.
Problem is... Death wouldn't RELEASE Adam. The statement by Death's chief Agent, Satan, that "You will NOT die" was a LIE. Nor would Death release Adam's progeny... because Death wasn't SATISFIED with the price Adam paid! It was not ENOUGH. SOOOoooo... Death held Adam... AND HIS PROGENY... ransom.
However, GOD... SENT HIS SON... Christ... to PAY the ransom... so that WE can be RELEASED from Death's hold. It took Christ... because, it took a SON OF GOD to pay for everyone. Excluding Adam, whose value had now dropped, there was no one BUT Christ. For God only HAD two sons: Christ and Adam. So it had to be a life that Death would TAKE in ransom! Adams obviously didn't do, and yours or mines certainly wouldn't.
And that Son DID die... DID give his life [a ransom]. BUT... Death was not able to hold HIM. Praise JAH, when my Lord DID die and DID go to the world of the dead, he took the KEYS to "death and hades" with him... so that unlike Adam and US... HE was released! HE... "conquered" Death. How? By escaping Death's grip. How? By using the "keys"? What were the "keys"? FAITH... that God WOULD NOT leave him in death's grip; FAITH that God WOULD resurrrect him; FAITH that God WOULD return him to the place he had before he came here; FAITH that God WOULD thereafter exalt him as His king. And OBEDIENCE to God... so that it was GOD he slaved for... rather than doing what Adam did... and selling himself as a slave to Death.
As the last enemy, however, Death will be "brought to NOTHING." It WILL be destroyed. It will be thrown into the Lake of Fire... because it will not longer have to power to avoid it - will be weakened. Why? Because once we all attain to the TRUE life... that which is incorruptible... Death will feed... NO MORE. Why? Because we won't have the earthly bodies... flesh with its blood... that Death feeds on. Thus, Death "will be NO more" ... and as a result, neither will outcry or mourning or pain be anymore.
If my neighbor across the street started slitting animals throats and splattering blood all around and burning the fat up on an altar to his God in his front yard, I would be just a little concerned for my safety, and wonder what is wrong with this guy or gal.
Yes, if you didn't have a clue was to what your neighbor was doing and why. But you would probably think differently if your neighbor said to you, "I committed a crime, and the ruler of Country A is requiring my life; however, the ruler of Country B has worked out an arrangement whereby I can give the life of a chicken instead. Now, if it were me alone, I'd give Country A my life; but I've got a wife and children (or plan to), and so, I would rather give the life of a chicken."
Now, okay, it could be that you're an animal rights activist, so you say, "Wait, are you saying that your life is worth more than that chicken's?" What do you think your neighbor is going to say? He's going to say, "Of course, my life's worth more than a chicken's." (Now, that is not necessarily true, of course, depending on the kind of person your neighbor is. But it's moot anyway - again, animals understand sacrifice for such purposes. They do NOT understand when they are USELESSLY slaughtered, however, like, for example, when we want to look "pretty" and so slaughter them simply for their "outer garments" (pelts). THAT is not sacrifice - THAT is unspeakable abuse and disregard for life. They will give their lives for us... as food... as warmth... and as sacrifices; they DON'T give them, however, for our shallow, vain aesthetic appearance. That is pure vanity, with absolutely NO benefit whatsoever.)
As the title would suggest, maybe we are not killing enough animals to get God's attention.
You had God's attention... and may have it still. Had it, so much so that He sacrificed His own Son so that no more animals... or humans... needed to be sacrified. One sacrifice, from one man, to cover all sins (excluding blasphemy against the Holy Spirit), for all people, for all time. Nothing more is needed. Blood was poured out and thus sins can be atoned for.
It is we who turned our attention away, however, in PRIMARY part because we got mad at Him when we realized that other humans were lying to us. You know: "the elders/pastors/priests/popes/imans/shamans/leaders and other imposters YOU gave us... THEY made us believe this crap, and so we believed it." Problem here is that He DIDN'T give us any such persons. They are "offspring of vipers," and so were GIVEN us... by the arkaich serpent, the chief agent of Death... Satan. Why? For the very purpose of what is occurring now: so that folks, perhaps even you... would CURSE GOD... and die. Why? Because your DOING so... serves and furthers HIS purpose: to feed Death. Your chagrin at God... should it lead to actually cursing God... would only make you another morsel.
How many thousands of sheep and cattle were slaughtered at the inaugeration of Soloman's temple?
Some, but not anywhere near what the "false stylus" of the "secretaries" wrote about. How do we know? The way we know EVERYTHING about God: we LOOK AT CHRIST. How many animals did HE sacrifice or have his followers sacrifice?
But some were because my Lord had not yet given HIS blood as a replacement. And why some? Because, again, only blood atones for... CLEANSES... sin. Lots of folks were going to go to that temple over a very long period of time and offer up "sacrifices." And many were going to be "unclean" when they did. Even the priests. So SOME blood was poured out to ATONE for even these, so that even if they DID approach in an unclean state, their errors could STILL be forgiven. Why? Because the "wage" of sin is death... and Death would call to be fed... to have its "wage" paid.
So, yes, it was paid "with the blood of bulls" and doves and goats... but only temporarily - my Lord paid for it perpetually, once... AND FOR ALL... when he later gave HIS blood.
I hope this helps, dear Tor. I have shared it with you just as I have received it from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son and Christ of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. May the honor and glory be given to that One... as the Word of God, the Cistern, from which the "living water" of God flow and which dispenses ALL truth... and leads us into ALL truth.
I bid you peace!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
toreador

Hello Aguest, I appreciate your response to my questions. I was hoping for some honest answers to some perplexing questions I have had for a long time after leaving the JW's.
No, it is not love, if that were the case. But, again, you assume in error. First, assuming God as that "judge," there was not the "power to forgive with simply a word." The universal LAW was that blood had to be poured out (i.e., "unless blood is poured out, there is no forgiveness of sins.") This law existed even before the earth was created. It is why Abel made animal sacrifices.
I do not understand this at all. Are you saying there were animals sacrifices before the earth was created such as on another planer? Are you saying that God is subject to a law higher than his own. God does not make the laws?
Second, Adam didn't ASK to be forgiven, nor did he offer a sacrifice to atone so the he could BE forgiven.
According to you, he did not have to ask for forgiveness as God only told Adam what would happen if he ate of it. Notice what you wrote.
Actually, this is a HUGE error: GOD... did not sentence ANYONE to ANYTHING. This error has its origin in the false believe that God "forbade" Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad. He did not. He simply WARNED them of what would happen if they did eat.
In fact, he didn't even ACKNOWLEDGE that he had sinnned.
You dont have to repent from a warning if that what YOU call it.
But, in his own arrogance and refusal to be ACCOUNTABLE, Adam didn't do that... because, in HIS mind, HE didn't DO anything wrong.
See above.
First, the animal sacrifices were in place of human sacrifices.
You are not making any sense to me. If I rape my neighbors wife, can I go kill his dog as a sacrifice, if his dog willingly offers himself to me to offer as a sacrifice.
And, like Christ, the animals gave their lives willingly. For us. As they do now... when we use them for food and warmth.
Apparently you have never been to a slaughter where cows are killed for food and to make garments out of their hide. They know dang well what's going on and they sure as heck are NOT offering themselves willingly. You are talking plain silly talk if you expect anyone to believe this you are going to have to make up something at least somewhat believable.
Why do they do this willingly? Because UNLIKE US... they have faith in the resurrection.
Now I know you have gone off the deep end.
They KNOW that the Most Holy One of Israel will keep His promise to them... and restore them. UNLIKE US... they understand that THIS life... is NOT the "reality," but merely a REFLECTION of the reality.
Now you are saying our lives are not even real and animals realize this but humans don't! Wow, this is amazing stuff.
Second, you have been misled: It is not God who "wants" all this blood. This is simply a matter of the universal law of atonement: the life... is IN the blood. And BLOOD... atones for sin. Life... for Death. Because, "the last enemy," Death... REQUIRES lives... in order to exist.
You speak of death as if its alive and is able to think and demand things. Has cognitive faculties. This is getting to be a very weird post to read.
Christ is the Chief Agent of Life... God. Thus, HE leads people to LIFE - God. Satan... is the chief agent... of Death. Thus, HE leads people TO Death.
Satan was the spawn of God as well as Adam. Do you agree? Did God create the chief agent of death?
Like any "living" thing, in order for Death to live... it must FEED. Eat. The "food" that Death "eats"... is earthly lives. Animal, plant... human.
Now you are creeping me out like some bad horror movie where you see zombies running around eating people, only this time you have gone even farther to say that an occurence such as death actually has the capacity to feed on plants and animals and humans. Whoever is telling you this stuff needs help.
Adam sold himself... and his children... INCLUDING you and me... as a slave... TO DEATH.
This is theoretically impossible. Even according to you, all Adam did was ignore a warning.
In order to SELL something to someone, that someone has to have a PRICE. Death... has a PRICE: life.
Impossible. It is impossible to sell or buy death, it is a thing that happens, not somethign you can buy and sell.
Therefore, Death's PRICE... WAGE... in exchange for loosing Adam after he "knew" bad (death) was Adam's life... AND his progeny's ("I'll eat and then I'll know what it is to die - I'll know bad - but YOU promise to not hold me. In exchange, I will become YOUR servant, me AND my children"). THAT is what occurred.
Adam made no such bargain, nor is it even possible to do such a thing.
Problem is... Death wouldn't RELEASE Adam. The statement by Death's chief Agent, Satan, that "You will NOT die" was a LIE. Nor would Death release Adam's progeny... because Death wasn't SATISFIED with the price Adam paid! It was not ENOUGH. SOOOoooo... Death held Adam... AND HIS PROGENY... ransom.
There you go again thinking that an occurence can think and demand something. Even if someone was dying and death was taking his life, it cannot take the life of someone standing next to him or on the other side of the world.
However, GOD... SENT HIS SON... Christ... to PAY the ransom... so that WE can be RELEASED from Death's hold.
So death has a hold on God and can command God to pay him. I thought God set the rules and owes nothing to anyone.
It took Christ... because, it took a SON OF GOD to pay for everyone. Excluding Adam, whose value had now dropped, there was no one BUT Christ. For God only HAD two sons: Christ and Adam.
What about Satan, wasn't he a son of God too?
So it had to be a life that Death would TAKE in ransom! Adams obviously didn't do, and yours or mines certainly wouldn't.
So paying Death by killing millions of willing animals did nothing to appease this Thing that happens called death. It. Death.... is cognizant of the fact that an equaling did not happen with this and demanded a perfect life for a perfect life it claimed? This is really getting worse as time goes on here.
And that Son DID die... DID give his life [a ransom]. BUT... Death was not able to hold HIM.
Well, it should have been able to hold him. It.... Death....... demanded payment, thought He got it then alas he was cheated. I would say He is definitely not going to let that go idly by. I bet he went after some plants, animals etc on a rampage!
Praise JAH, when my Lord DID die and DID go to the world of the dead, he took the KEYS to "death and hades" with him... so that unlike Adam and US... HE was released! HE... "conquered" Death. How? By escaping Death's grip. How? By using the "keys"? What were the "keys"? FAITH... that God WOULD NOT leave him in death's grip; FAITH that God WOULD resurrrect him; FAITH that God WOULD return him to the place he had before he came here; FAITH that God WOULD thereafter exalt him as His king. And OBEDIENCE to God... so that it was GOD he slaved for... rather than doing what Adam did... and selling himself as a slave to Death.
Faith is something a person has, not something that lives with or apart and is a separate entity any more than death is. It is certainly not a literal or physical key to anything.
Tor wrote: If my neighbor across the street started slitting animals throats and splattering blood all around and burning the fat up on an altar to his God in his front yard, I would be just a little concerned for my safety, and wonder what is wrong with this guy or gal.
A guest: Yes, if you didn't have a clue was to what your neighbor was doing and why. But you would probably think differently if your neighbor said to you, "I committed a crime, and the ruler of Country A is requiring my life; however, the ruler of Country B has worked out an arrangement whereby I can give the life of a chicken instead. Now, if it were me alone, I'd give Country A my life; but I've got a wife and children (or plan to), and so, I would rather give the life of a chicken."
How does this sound for logic. I have a son who ignored my warning so he must die for this. His own life is now worth nothing, so my other son who listened to me must die to ransom the first ones offspring. Make sense. Absolutely not, yet this is your explanation of things.
Now, okay, it could be that you're an animal rights activist, so you say, "Wait, are you saying that your life is worth more than that chicken's?" What do you think your neighbor is going to say? He's going to say, "Of course, my life's worth more than a chicken's." (Now, that is not necessarily true, of course, depending on the kind of person your neighbor is. But it's moot anyway - again, animals understand sacrifice for such purposes.
Honestly, you have gone off the deep end with this one. Animals understand the difference between when we kill them for solely for their skin versus when we kill them to make them pay for our sins. I have a real problem with that. I grew up on a farm and killed many a chicken etc.
They do NOT understand when they are USELESSLY slaughtered, however, like, for example, when we want to look "pretty" and so slaughter them simply for their "outer garments" (pelts).
So how about a cow that's killed for food, but their hide is also going to be used for a leather garment to make us look good AND keep us warm. Is this cow really confused at this point??? Tell me, how does this cow know what is going to happen to all its parts before it dies???
THAT is not sacrifice - THAT is unspeakable abuse and disregard for life. They will give their lives for us... as food... as warmth... and as sacrifices; they DON'T give them, however, for our shallow, vain aesthetic appearance. That is pure vanity, with absolutely NO benefit whatsoever.)
Please Aguest, see above comments.
You had God's attention... and may have it still. Had it, so much so that He sacrificed His own Son so that no more animals... or humans... needed to be sacrified. One sacrifice, from one man, to cover all sins (excluding blasphemy against the Holy Spirit), for all people, for all time. Nothing more is needed. Blood was poured out and thus sins can be atoned for.
Again who set the price in that it had to be killing of innocent life. Who holds the cards and sets the rules. You say its not God, if so he is not all powerful.
But some were because my Lord had not yet given HIS blood as a replacement. And why some? Because, again, only blood atones for... CLEANSES... sin.
I cannot see myself killing an innocent animal for sins I may have committed. I cannot see making someone else pay for my sins.
So, yes, it was paid "with the blood of bulls" and doves and goats... but only temporarily - my Lord paid for it perpetually, once... AND FOR ALL... when he later gave HIS blood.
A lot of innocent animal life could have been spared if God had not waited a few thousand years before demanding the innocent death of his son to pay for the sins of others, wouldnt you agree?
I hope this helps, dear Tor. I have shared it with you just as I have received it from my Lord,
I seriously doubt you got any of this from God's son. IN all seriousness; If you are hearing voices telling you this completely wierd stuff above you may need to seek medical help.
I wish you the very best of all things too, and may you have peace,
Toreador
AGuest

Again, peace to you!

I appreciate your response to my questions. I was hoping for some honest answers to some perplexing questions I have had for a long time after leaving the JW's.
You are quite welcome and I am glad to be of service!
Are you saying there were animals sacrifices before the earth was created such as on another planer?
Not quite. True, the law that blood atoned for sin existed "before the founding of the world/throwing down of the seed"... creation of the physical universe; however, since there was yet no sin, there was no sacrifice... or need for it. Sin, and thus the need for sacrifice, originated after the physical realm. Now, DEATH existed, yes. And Death entered into this realm THROUGH sin. Adam's sin "opened" the way for Death to gain access to this realm, something Death did not have before. However, Death totally existed before the physical universe was formed. That was HOW God "knew" good (life) AND bad (death). Thus, the lie to Adam "you will be like God, knowing (and this knowing denotes NOT "a knowledge of" but actual intimacy with...) good AND bad."
Are you saying that God is subject to a law higher than his own. God does not make the laws?
Higher than His own, no. And He made them, yes. But not necessarily by decree; not everything is "law" by decree - some things are "law" because the reality, creation and existence require them to be. Thus, in bringing about life, the Most Holy One of Israel also, in His infinite wisdom, had to bring about certain laws that... ummmm... "protect" life," some of which cannot be broken. Life... does have a value, regardless of how small.
Now, while we may yet be too earthly, too limited, to puny in mind and heart to understand this, there are certain "universal" laws which, if broken, have much greater consequences that we can imagine. For example, the atom. Such a tiny thing, yes? And yet, it can utterly destroy. So, we have to acknowledge the "laws" associated with tampering with atoms. That WE think a law should be... ummmmm... "flexible"... is irrelevant as, again, we are limited in our understanding.
According to you, [Adam] did not have to ask for forgiveness as God only told Adam what would happen if he ate of it. Notice what you wrote: "Actually, this is a HUGE error: GOD... did not sentence ANYONE to ANYTHING. This error has its origin in the false believe that God "forbade" Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad. He did not. He simply WARNED them of what would happen if they did eat. In fact, he didn't even ACKNOWLEDGE that he had sinnned." You dont have to repent from a warning if that what YOU call it.
My apologies for seeming unclear; let me see if I can clarify: a father warns a child to stay away from something injurious. The child doesn't listen and so becomes seriously harmed. Let's say the child drank an entire 5th of scotch (which could be fatal). The father finds out, but is not now asking the child to throw himself on the ground and do obeisance as a result. The father notes... and is concerned... because (1) the child has actually poisoned himself and so will die and (2) the child won't even acknowledge that he voluntarily drank the scotch. Rather, in his opinion he's "okay" (although he's green at the gills and hurlin' up his guts)... and if he isn't, well, it everybody's fault but his.
Now, the father certainly could have given him a "bit of the hair of the dog that bit him" to help ease the experience. But, arrogant, pompous child that he was, again, he wouldn't even acknowledge that he needed this intervention. And so, like any GOOD parent would do... the father just sent him away to "sleep it off." Oh, and he locked up the room where the liquor cabinet was.
Unfortunately, there was a "side affect" that the child didn't know about, and one of the reasons the father warned him: the alcohol not only changed the child's genetic "balance" (which is why he was now dying), but also had some affect on the child's reproductive properties. So that now, ALL of his children would came out with a defective gene that would make them all crave alcohol. Thus, drunks, every one of 'em.
If I rape my neighbors wife, can I go kill his dog as a sacrifice, if his dog willingly offers himself to me to offer as a sacrifice.
First, if you weren't truly sorry for what you'd done, it wouldn't matter: dog, cat, bull, siberian tiger... Christ. The sacrifice would be void.
Second, if I were your neighbor's wife, a dog... or even a bull... 3 bulls... 20 bulls... 120 bulls... would NOT have been sufficient. I would have wanted YOUR cahones. And I wouldn't have cared if you lived after they were removed. BUT... your life would have still been worth more than a dog's, albeit barely, IMHO. And so, an animal would have taken your place (although, I think under the Law rape could have cost you your cahones, if not, perhaps your very life... unless I chose to SURPASS the Law... and FORGIVE you... and thus allow you to live... rather than calling for justice).
Apparently you have never been to a slaughter where cows are killed for food and to make garments out of their hide. They know dang well what's going on and they sure as heck are NOT offering themselves willingly.
The animals you speak of have been abused; of course they have an issue. They know that this is not what it's supposed to be about. Mass slaughtering is the same as taking them for their hides - vanity. We should take ONLY what we need to in order to live... and nothing more. Unfortunately, living in "the land of plenty" supersedes this, doesn't it? To the shame of us all.
You are talking plain silly talk if you expect anyone to believe this you are going to have to make up something at least somewhat believable.
No, not really. I understand your chagrin here. But I think that if you spoke with a small farmer, one who truly cares for its livestock and raises it in a moral and ethical manner, you would find out differently.
AGuest: Why do they do this willingly? Because UNLIKE US... they have faith in the resurrection.
Tor: Now I know you have gone off the deep end.
No, I only spoke the truth to you. Seriously. There's actually NO difference between us and animals... except the vessels we reside in... the bodies that we and they have... which bodies allow US greater freedom... of thought and deed... and which restrict them. If they COULD speak, they would... and we would be amazed.
AGuest: They KNOW that the Most Holy One of Israel will keep His promise to them... and restore them. UNLIKE US... they understand that THIS life... is NOT the "reality," but merely a REFLECTION of the reality.
Tor: Now you are saying our lives are not even real and animals realize this but humans don't! Wow, this is amazing stuff.
I am, I did... and you're right: truly amazing. You don't know the half of it.
You speak of death as if its alive and is able to think and demand things. Has cognitive faculties. This is getting to be a very weird post to read.
Death is alive... just as God and Christ are alive. Death does think and does demand things. That is why Death is called "the LAST enemy," and why Death is addressed "Where is your sting?". And why Death... whose name is Abbadon... must be controlled until he is destroyed. The Most Holy One of Israel does have SOME control over Death... which is why only the FIRSTBORN of all of Egypt had their breath taken. Death... would have taken them all.
Satan was the spawn of God as well as Adam. Do you agree?
Sorry, no, I do not. The spawn... i.e., seed... i.e. children... of God... were initially only two: Adam... and Christ. These two were the only sons of God. Satan... like Michael... was a angel... of the cherub rank... but not a son. For angels... are NOT sons... but ministers TO the sons. That is what they brought into existence FOR: to minister TO the sons.
Did God create the chief agent of death?
No, He did not. He created a spirit being... one of the two most beautifuls of all spirit beings, including the Son... which being, after becoming self-asorbed with his own beauty, decided he didn't like the position he had been created for... and wanted more. God wouldn't give him more, however, and so that being jumped shipped and became the chief agent of God's ENEMY... Death. The last enemy.
AGuest: Like any "living" thing, in order for Death to live... it must FEED. Eat. The "food" that Death "eats"... is earthly lives. Animal, plant... human.
Tor: Now you are creeping me out like some bad horror movie where you see zombies running around eating people, only this time you have gone even farther to say that an occurence such as death actually has the capacity to feed on plants and animals and humans. Whoever is telling you this stuff needs help.
Disease feeds on its host, dear Tor. Fire "feeds." In fact, unless a fire has food... fuel... it will die out. It needs oxygen to breath... and fuel to consume. It is ALIVE. And so is Death.
AGuest: Adam sold himself... and his children... INCLUDING you and me... as a slave... TO DEATH.
Tor: This is theoretically impossible. Even according to you, all Adam did was ignore a warning.
I'm sorry if you got that from my response; I should have been more clear: Adam ignored the warning from God and, in the hope that he would be granted power over what God had warned him against, he made a deal with one whom he thought could give him such power... Death... in exchange for his life and that of his progeny. In his mind, only two had power over Death: God and Death. He was wrong: even Death is subject to God.
Impossible. It is impossible to sell or buy death, it is a thing that happens, not somethign you can buy and sell.
It is no more impossible than purchasing... or should I say, repurchasing... life. And life is repurchased... with blood.
Adam made no such bargain, nor is it even possible to do such a thing.
No, truly. He did. He "sold" us into slavery. There is only one thing that has COMPLETE dominion over us, right now: Death. The bodies we bear are those of Death's - their is death and sin and corruption IN them. The bodies we WILL have... are those from God. In HIS image. They are incorruptible, without sin and without death IN them.
There you go again thinking that an occurence can think and demand something. Even if someone was dying and death was taking his life, it cannot take the life of someone standing next to him or on the other side of the world.
Actually, it can. And it does. So very often, people cry, "Why did GOD take him/her?" God... did not take anyone. Death took them. As it can take the life of virtually anyone it WISHES... anywhere... at any time. The only lives it CANNOT take, are those restricted from Death by God. Thus, I give you the account of Job... and the fact that ONLY the firstborn of Egypt died.
So death has a hold on God and can command God to pay him. I thought God set the rules and owes nothing to anyone.
(Smiling) The Most Holy One of Israel not only sets the rules... but honors them. Sometimes at great cost. What honorable man would set rules in his household then allow outsiders to run all over them? Death does not have a hold on God; Death is in subjection to God... and God controls Death. And you are correct: God doesn't owe a THING to Death - Adam does... and we do. GOD... has provided a PAYMENT... for Adam's error... and OUR debt. His Son, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.
What about Satan, wasn't he a son of God too?
See above (smiling).
So paying Death by killing millions of willing animals did nothing to appease this Thing that happens called death.
Ever seen a wildfire? How much does it have to consume before it is satiated? How much will it consume? How much CAN it?
It. Death.... is cognizant of the fact that an equaling did not happen with this and demanded a perfect life for a perfect life it claimed?
Yes.
This is really getting worse as time goes on here.
Well, you could have stopped at any time. But you chose to continue, so...
Well, it should have been able to hold him. It.... Death....... demanded payment, thought He got it then alas he was cheated. I would say He is definitely not going to let that go idly by. I bet he went after some plants, animals etc on a rampage!
YES!!!! You GOT IT!!! Good thing you kept on reading, eh?? (BIG SMILE) And there was no problem with "cheating" him, for he "cheated" to begin with. It was never a honorable contract from the get go and so, it was/is an "all is fair... in LOVE... AND war."
Faith is something a person has, not something that lives with or apart and is a separate entity any more than death is. It is certainly not a literal or physical key to anything.
Ummmm... not quite. It is not an entity, as Death is. And it is not something one has, per se, but is given. And once received (even if only a mustard seed worth), it is something to be "exercised." Like a muscle. It is not inactive, dormant, but alive and expanding. Faith... is a fruit of God's spirit... by means of which we bear MORE fruit... as well as a GIFT of that spirit.
How does this sound for logic. I have a son who ignored my warning so he must die for this. His own life is now worth nothing, so my other son who listened to me must die to ransom the first ones offspring. Make sense. Absolutely not, yet this is your explanation of things.
Hmmmm... try this: I have a son who ignored my warning and he is GOING to die, because that was the consquence of what he did (he ate something poisonous that had no anecdote because the only anecdate was blood... which had never been spilled before - it had never NEEDED to be spilled...). And so now, his own life... his blood... is worth nothing (cause it's got poison in it, which is why he's dying- duh!). What do do? So my other son who listened to me, who did NOT consume poison, and so whose blood IS still valuabled... OFFERS... to PROVIDE the first anecdote... to pour out HIS blood... and thus provide a TRANSFUSION... to save, at a minimum, the first son's offspring. What a son, yes? Slight problem: there are so many offspring, that the second son's going to have to give ALL of his blood. And that most probably means he's gonna die. Hmmmmm... Make sense?
Animals understand the difference between when we kill them for solely for their skin versus when we kill them to make them pay for our sins. I have a real problem with that. I grew up on a farm and killed many a chicken etc.
Even a dog knows the difference between being kicked... and tripped over. How is that?
So how about a cow that's killed for food, but their hide is also going to be used for a leather garment to make us look good AND keep us warm. Is this cow really confused at this point??? Tell me, how does this cow know what is going to happen to all its parts before it dies???
The cow... knows its purpose. ALL of creation... has a purpose. Every living, breathing soul. And it has no problem with that purpose. It is we who have deviated... and those who are subjected to that deviation know it.
Who set the price in that it had to be killing of innocent life.
Unless the life IS innocent, it has no value. SinFUL life... has no value; it is sinLESS life that does.
Who holds the cards and sets the rules. You say its not God, if so he is not all powerful.
In this particular deal, Death required a "wage"... a payment. Lives. A sinLESS life... is worth a hundred myriads, if not more... of sinFUL lives.
I cannot see myself killing an innocent animal for sins I may have committed. I cannot see making someone else pay for my sins.
Sigh! Exactly, Toreador. And that was part of the problem: Israel did not HAVE to make such sactifices! Did Christ? What animal did he ever offer up in this way? He... offered HIMSELF. Israel... could have SURPASSED the Law... by means of LOVE... borne out in justice, mercy and forgiveness. If they had ALL learned to FORGIVE one another, there would have no NEED for sacrifices. Let me give you an example: say, I, a sinner, was taking my doves up to the temple because, well, I had committed some "transgression" and needed atonement. The priest had a choice: take and slaughter my little doves... OR FORGIVE ME AND SEND ME HOME. And the Law would not have condemned him for doing so because LOVE... is the Law's FULFILLMENT. LOVE... "covers... a multitude... of transgressions." Problem was, the folks were SO het up with pointin the finger and busting people out... that the sacrificial arrangement HAD to be there! THEY made it that way.
When they left Egypt, there was no "law," per se. There was no priestly class - the heads of households offered up sacrifices on behalf of their families. And they didn't just go around slaughtering animals for the heck of it. When a sacrifice WAS offered... it was a BIG HONKIN' DEAL. As it should have been.
That WE... puny earthling man have PROFANED the thing... does not mean that animals have also rejected it. Again, they are faithful, when we are not.
A lot of innocent animal life could have been spared if God had not waited a few thousand years before demanding the innocent death of his son to pay for the sins of others, wouldnt you agree?
Sorry, no, I do not. Rather than getting mad at God for "taking so long," I am grateful for the mercy His is showing in doing so. Not ALL of mankind is bad, per se. Some are doing the best they can, given their particular circumstances. Does that mean they didn't even deserve the right, the gift of being born at all? It is because of God's mercy... that I have come into existence here. And that my children have. And you have. Had He hastily meted out vengeance, I don't know if I would have been here... or if my children would have. True, life is tough... but I still love it.
And when I think that perhaps I shouldn't, that I should just give up and give in... maybe lay down and die, even... I am given the privilege of having an exchange such as this one. YOU are apart of the beauty in my life, Toreador... you and people like you. Why? Because by means of this discussion, and perhaps others, you have become a part of my life, a part of the sum total of who and what I am. YOU are the reason animals gave/give themselves willingly... and the reason that my Lord did.
I seriously doubt you got any of this from God's son.
Hey, faith is not a possession of all. But I have spoken nothing but truth to you, just as I have received it from the Truth.
IN all seriousness; If you are hearing voices telling you this completely wierd stuff above you may need to seek medical help.
Hmmmm... that's exactly what Carey Barber and the "elders" said. When my Lord had me speak and shoot holes in their misleading, false and totally untruthful doctrines. Funny how you and they are on the same page with this...
I wish you the very best of all things too, and may you have peace,
I'm going to take that with the sincerity I know you intend... and wish you the very same.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
toreador

It is impossible for anyone with a rational mind to take you serious that I have talked too. Even religious people. Animals do NOT go willingly to the slaughter for sacrifice and no amount of wishing it is going to make it so. The facts are there, you need to get out more and see it for yourself like I have.
No, not really. I understand your chagrin here. But I think that if you spoke with a small farmer, one who truly cares for its livestock and raises it in a moral and ethical manner, you would find out differently.
I was born and raised on a small farm, so I know exactly what I am talking about.
No, I only spoke the truth to you. Seriously. There's actually NO difference between us and animals... except the vessels we reside in... the bodies that we and they have... which bodies allow US greater freedom... of thought and deed... and which restrict them. If they COULD speak, they would... and we would be amazed.
You speak as if you are doctor doolittle and you yourself CAN speak to the animals. I have been around dogs, cats, sheep, cattle, pigs etc all my life and while I have had what I call some pretty intelligent animals in my life I dont pretend they could converse with me about being willing to offer up their lives so that I can kill them to appease some sick God who wants blood sacrifice, who has no use for it.
Death is alive... just as God and Christ are alive. Death does think and does demand things. That is why Death is called "the LAST enemy," and why Death is addressed "Where is your sting?". And why Death... whose name is Abbadon... must be controlled until he is destroyed. The Most Holy One of Israel does have SOME control over Death... which is why only the FIRSTBORN of all of Egypt had their breath taken. Death... would have taken them all .
No.. death is something that happens. Have you ever watched anything die, even once in your life? I have, many times. If death is to be done away with it is simply that death will not happen, it will be no more.
Did God create the chief agent of death?
No, He did not. He created a spirit being... one of the two most beautifuls of all spirit beings, including the Son... which being, after becoming self-asorbed with his own beauty, decided he didn't like the position he had been created for... and wanted more. God wouldn't give him more, however, and so that being jumped shipped and became the chief agent of God's ENEMY... Death. The last enemy.
I disagree, He created the angel that became Satan.
Adam made no such bargain, nor is it even possible to do such a thing.
No, truly. He did. He "sold" us into slavery. There is only one thing that has COMPLETE dominion over us, right now: Death. The bodies we bear are those of Death's - their is death and sin and corruption IN them. The bodies we WILL have... are those from God. In HIS image. They are incorruptible, without sin and without death IN them.
Death was around long before any humans were here on this planet, so your hypothesis falls flat, somehow in some peculiar this is how animals or humans die. Its really quite simple, get an archaeology book are read it for yourself.
(Smiling) The Most Holy One of Israel not only sets the rules... but honors them. Sometimes at great cost. What honorable man would set rules in his household then allow outsiders to run all over them? Death does not have a hold on God; Death is in subjection to God... and God controls Death. And you are correct: God doesn't owe a THING to Death - Adam does... and we do. GOD... has provided a PAYMENT... for Adam's error... and OUR debt. His Son, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.
If death is in subjection to God AND he controls death then God sets the rules, plain and simple. A loving God would not expect billions of others to die because of one man or woman eating an apple.
Hmmmm... try this: I have a son who ignored my warning and he is GOING to die, because that was the consquence of what he did (he ate something poisonous that had no anecdote because the only anecdate was blood... which had never been spilled before - it had never NEEDED to be spilled...). And so now, his own life... his blood... is worth nothing (cause it's got poison in it, which is why he's dying- duh!). What do do? So my other son who listened to me, who did NOT consume poison, and so whose blood IS still valuabled... OFFERS... to PROVIDE the first anecdote... to pour out HIS blood... and thus provide a TRANSFUSION... to save, at a minimum, the first son's offspring. What a son, yes? Slight problem: there are so many offspring, that the second son's going to have to give ALL of his blood. And that most probably means he's gonna die. Hmmmmm... Make sense?
How could it make sense my friend. Are you saying if the first human was an alcoholic it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the whole human race to not be alcoholics. You dont need to answer that because we both know it isnt true any more than death was nonexistent before the first humans.
I think if you can understand what I have written above, the rest of your post is pretty much answered by the above. If you have trouble understanding the rationality of the above, I would encourage you to possible speak with someone who could help you understand it better in person.
Good to hear from you. You sound like a very nice individual but just a little mixed up. Nothing wrong with that, we all view things differently coming from different walks of life etc.
Peace to you,
Tor
AGuest

And the greatest of peace to you!
It is impossible for anyone with a rational mind to take you serious...
I cannot agree. I interchange with people with rational minds all the time.
that I have talked too.
Ahhhhh... that you have talked to. My guess is that you haven't talked to everyone... with a rational mind.
Even religious people.
My apologies for anyone this offends but... most "religious" people do not have rational minds. Most "religious" people can't explain what they believe... or why. Most "religious" people do what they do... and believe what they believe... because other "religious" people tell them they should.
Animals do NOT go willingly to the slaughter for sacrifice and no amount of wishing it is going to make it so. The facts are there, you need to get out more and see it for yourself like I have.
They do, Toreador, truly. Not all of the time, true, because not all of their sacrifices are honorable. Certainly, you know this. But I have not lied to you regarding this.
I was born and raised on a small farm, so I know exactly what I am talking about.
Okay, I'll take your word for it. But you do not have to take my word for I have shared with you. You can ask the same One that revealed this truth to it to me. I initially thought as you did, and was lovingly set straight. As a result, I have a MUCH greater love... and respect... FOR animals (particularly those we consume), now. I know them to be living beings, with spirits, and no different from us, really, other than that they are conscious of their purpose. We are still fumbling around trying to figure ours out.
You speak as if you are doctor doolittle and you yourself CAN speak to the animals.
Well, while I must admit that they're not all as "dumb," technically AND literally as we would like to believe, no, I can't speak to animals, at least not in the style of Dr. Doolittle. I can, however, often hear their spirits... which is part of the gift I was given: hearing spirits and into the spirit realm. But it is not a constant occurrence; not because of them... but because of me: I am still flesh with its blood and, unfortunately, all too often let myself get distracted by what's going on in this world, or, more specifically, my world... to pay attention. I should learn to "stand still" more often, as some here have pointed out (hey, JT!), and allow myself the deeper connection... but, alas, I have sucked at that, thus far.
I have been around dogs, cats, sheep, cattle, pigs etc all my life and while I have had what I call some pretty intelligent animals in my life I dont pretend they could converse with me about being willing to offer up their lives so that I can kill them to appease some sick God who wants blood sacrifice, who has no use for it.
It was not the animals who told me, dear Tor... it was the One they were created for. They belong to him... and he told me of their purpose with regard to us. Does he LIKE that they had to be used that way? Of course, not. But laws were broken and fines had to be paid as a result. Not to God... to Death. Rather than give the lives of the humans who broke the laws... "lesser" kinds of flesh... were offered.
Death is something that happens.
Well, yes, that is ONE definition of the word. But truly, there is another as well.
Have you ever watched anything die, even once in your life? I have, many times. If death is to be done away with it is simply that death will not happen, it will be no more.
That's actually incorrect, Tor. Death is the destroyer that was sent through Egypt. He is a spirit being, sometimes referred to as "the angel of death." His Hebrew name is Abaddon, and his Greek name is Apollyon. He is the one that enticed, and therefore, "created" Satan. He is the one that Satan now serves, as a result of rejecting God. He is God's enemy... and thus ours. God is good... and life (thus, as His Son, representative and image, Christ said, "I am the life..."); Death is bad... and death (the other definition). So long as Adam and Eve ate only from the Tree... of LIFE... they knew (initmately) "good"... and lived. Once they ate from the Tree of Knowing [the Knowledge of] good AND bad... they knew (intimately) "bad"... and so died.
The thing was that Adam thought, by means of his deal with Death (for his life and that of his progeny), brokered by Satan, that he would not be HELD by and ENSLAVED to Death... but that, instead, Death would release him... so that he WOULD know good and bad... life AND death... but still LIVE. Unfortunately, Adam's life... and that of his initial progeny's... was not enough for Death... who is still "collecting" on that debt, to this day.
BUT... for SOME of Adam's progeny... a ransom has been paid... so that even if such die IN THE FLESH... they WILL be RELEASED from Death... and raised to life... eternal. The WONDER of this is that ANYONE who "wishes"... can take advantage of the value of that ransom.
I disagree, He [God] created the angel that became Satan.
God created a beautiful, "gem-encrusted" (symbolically) spirit being, a cherub and the second angel of the Ark (thus, one of the orignal "arkaic" angels... or arkangel... and there were only two, Michael being the other). That spirit being's purpose was to "protect" the "cover"... or "propitiatory"... of the Ark. Like the other cherub, he was to "stand fast" and "keep his face toward"... that cover. He did not, however, but instead, turned his eye (and thus, his face) toward himself... and became inamored with his own beauty (the cover was not beautiful, in a visual sense, but quite plain). As a result, he became haughty... and sought to usurp the position of the cover... to be equal to, if not greater, than it.
The cover... propitiatory... is Christ. Like Michael, Satan was supposed to be the protector of Christ... and those belonging to him. "Those"... were the seed of the woman, Sarah, the spirit realm... which were IN the Ark. That seed had an enemy in the spirit realm... Death... the enemy of their Father. In order to protect that seed, God put it in the Ark... and put a COVER on that Ark, Christ. HIS job (Christ's)... was the protect the SEED. That is why he readily gave his life FOR that seed. Satan... was supposed to back-up the Christ. But... he did not "stand fast... WITH the Truth." Rather, he turned against the Truth, Christ.
Why did Satan turn against Christ? For the same reason as Adam: God's enemy, Death, made him a deal as well, that HE (Satan) would be exalted to the highest position in HIS (Death's) kingdom... IF he delivered up TO Death the seed of the Woman. Being haughty, Satan sought that position, and as a result... has been waging war against the seed of the Woman ever since. Death... God's enemy... "created" Satan... as we know him.
Death was around long before any humans were here on this planet so your hypothesis falls flat...
Death, dear Tor, was around before creation. Christ is the firstborn of all creation. Death, however, was around before Christ. The Darkness that is Death already existed when the Light that is Christ came into existence. Death is the OPPOSITE of life... the OPPOSITE of light. God (and thus, Christ) is life... and light. Death is the conflict, the contradiction, the reverse, the negative, and the opposition... to God... the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies... who is the concord, the accord, the fulfillment, the positive, and the convivial.
somehow in some peculiar this is how animals or humans die. Its really quite simple, get an archaeology book are read it for yourself.
My apologies, but I did not get that how we/they die was the subject of this discussion; I am speaking to the why... and the source... of such death... which has been erroneously attributed to the Most Holy One of Israel. That it is a LIE... can be discerned without "special gifts," however - all we need do is look at Christ, who said that HE came "to bear witness to the TRUTH." As the image of the living God and the VERY representation of His (God's) being, I ask you: who did HE kill or put to death? Who did he save... and bring to life? And for how many more will he do so? Like SO many others, dear 'Tor... you may have been SO far misled into believing the LIE... that you are unable, at this time... to even entertain the truth.
If death is in subjection to God AND he controls death then God sets the rules, plain and simple. A loving God would not expect billions of others to die because of one man or woman eating an apple.
First, dear one, it was not an apple. There was only one tree of its kind. Second, God will adhere to His rules if it means MORE than the billions would die. Adam made a deal he could not on his own pay - in other words, he let his mouth write a check (to Death) that his *ss couldn't cover. So, God is covering it, with the blood of His Son. It would be dishonest on the part of God to invalidate the deal Adam made. So, He is "covering" Adam's very bad "bet."
Now, I get it that you and other might think God should just end the game; swipe the chips to the floor and overturn the table. You might think He should just declare the game "over," Death the loser... and stop it now. If you play poker, however, you know that that can't happen, for several reasons: you would be shown to be a "bad sport" and maybe even a bully... and no true winner is declared. So what? So, although you ended the game, in the minds of the spectators, who really lost? You, who abruptly ended the game because YOU felt the stakes were too high? Or the person who appeared to have the greatest amount of chips at the time? If you don't play the game out... how do you know who the TRUE winner is?
True, dear 'Tor - it looks like Death has a MUCH greater pile of chips. But that's because the Most Holy One of Israel is "all in". Not worry, though, He still holds the "ace" card - Christ. At some point the game WILL be over... and as a result of that ace card... Christ... most (if not all) of the chips now held by Death... will be redeemed.
But don't be mad at God for playing the game out. Rather, be mad at Adam, who sat down at the table, first without enough chips to ante up, second without enough skill and experience to pay, and third without enough character to fold when he should have, rather than hocking his own children to cover the pot.
Are you saying if the first human was an alcoholic it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the whole human race to not be alcoholics. You dont need to answer that because we both know it isnt true any more than death was nonexistent before the first humans.
I am saying, yes, that if the first human contained a primary dominant gene that made him an alcoholic, it would be impossible for the whole human race not be alcoholics. What is NOT impossible is that SOME of them would not succumb to it, but instead be able to manage and control it. But they would still have the gene.
I think if you can understand what I have written above, the rest of your post is pretty much answered by the above. If you have trouble understanding the rationality of the above, I would encourage you to possible speak with someone who could help you understand it better in person.
I do understand what you have written; I used to think very similarly, if not the same. And I understand where your rationalization comes from: those who YOU "speak with"... and who help YOU "understand." Problem is, there understanding is inaccurate, as well. How, then, can yours not be? Only one way: I would encourage YOU... to go to the Source of all truth... and speak with HIM. Truly, it is better to drink water right from the source... than from the riverways, channels, creeks, streams... and "treatment plants" downstream. It tends to have gathered all kinds of waste and debris by that time. And even if it's been treated, some good things have been removed... and some bad things added. Go for the PURE stuff, 'Tor!!
Good to hear from you. You sound like a very nice individual but just a little mixed up. Nothing wrong with that, we all view things differently coming from different walks of life etc.
LOLOLOLOLOLO!! Good to hear from you, too! I am not mixed up, dear 'Tor, for once in my life. And the truth is that I am not really very nice. As I tell folks, I can be nice... but I am not automatically so, by no stretch. I have to work at it, hard sometimes. That is the truth.
The greatest of love and peace to you, and I remain,
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA

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