Again, peace to you!
I appreciate your response to my questions. I was hoping for some honest answers to some perplexing questions I have had for a long time after leaving the JW's.
You are quite welcome and I am glad to be of service!
Are you saying there were animals sacrifices before the earth was created such as on another planer?
Not quite. True, the law that blood atoned for sin existed "before the founding of the world/throwing down of the seed"... creation of the physical universe; however, since there was yet no sin, there was no sacrifice... or need for it. Sin, and thus the need for sacrifice, originated after the physical realm. Now, DEATH existed, yes. And Death entered into this realm THROUGH sin. Adam's sin "opened" the way for Death to gain access to this realm, something Death did not have before. However, Death totally existed before the physical universe was formed. That was HOW God "knew" good (life) AND bad (death). Thus, the lie to Adam "you will be like God, knowing (and this knowing denotes NOT "a knowledge of" but actual intimacy with...) good AND bad."
Are you saying that God is subject to a law higher than his own. God does not make the laws?
Higher than His own, no. And He made them, yes. But not necessarily by decree; not everything is "law" by decree - some things are "law" because the reality, creation and existence require them to be. Thus, in bringing about life, the Most Holy One of Israel also, in His infinite wisdom, had to bring about certain laws that... ummmm... "protect" life," some of which cannot be broken. Life... does have a value, regardless of how small.
Now, while we may yet be too earthly, too limited, to puny in mind and heart to understand this, there are certain "universal" laws which, if broken, have much greater consequences that we can imagine. For example, the atom. Such a tiny thing, yes? And yet, it can utterly destroy. So, we have to acknowledge the "laws" associated with tampering with atoms. That WE think a law should be... ummmmm... "flexible"... is irrelevant as, again, we are limited in our understanding.
According to you, [Adam] did not have to ask for forgiveness as God only told Adam what would happen if he ate of it. Notice what you wrote: "Actually, this is a HUGE error: GOD... did not sentence ANYONE to ANYTHING. This error has its origin in the false believe that God "forbade" Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad. He did not. He simply WARNED them of what would happen if they did eat. In fact, he didn't even ACKNOWLEDGE that he had sinnned." You dont have to repent from a warning if that what YOU call it.
My apologies for seeming unclear; let me see if I can clarify: a father warns a child to stay away from something injurious. The child doesn't listen and so becomes seriously harmed. Let's say the child drank an entire 5th of scotch (which could be fatal). The father finds out, but is not now asking the child to throw himself on the ground and do obeisance as a result. The father notes... and is concerned... because (1) the child has actually poisoned himself and so will die and (2) the child won't even acknowledge that he voluntarily drank the scotch. Rather, in his opinion he's "okay" (although he's green at the gills and hurlin' up his guts)... and if he isn't, well, it everybody's fault but his.
Now, the father certainly could have given him a "bit of the hair of the dog that bit him" to help ease the experience. But, arrogant, pompous child that he was, again, he wouldn't even acknowledge that he needed this intervention. And so, like any GOOD parent would do... the father just sent him away to "sleep it off." Oh, and he locked up the room where the liquor cabinet was.
Unfortunately, there was a "side affect" that the child didn't know about, and one of the reasons the father warned him: the alcohol not only changed the child's genetic "balance" (which is why he was now dying), but also had some affect on the child's reproductive properties. So that now, ALL of his children would came out with a defective gene that would make them all crave alcohol. Thus, drunks, every one of 'em.
If I rape my neighbors wife, can I go kill his dog as a sacrifice, if his dog willingly offers himself to me to offer as a sacrifice.
First, if you weren't truly sorry for what you'd done, it wouldn't matter: dog, cat, bull, siberian tiger... Christ. The sacrifice would be void.
Second, if I were your neighbor's wife, a dog... or even a bull... 3 bulls... 20 bulls... 120 bulls... would NOT have been sufficient. I would have wanted YOUR cahones. And I wouldn't have cared if you lived after they were removed. BUT... your life would have still been worth more than a dog's, albeit barely, IMHO. And so, an animal would have taken your place (although, I think under the Law rape could have cost you your cahones, if not, perhaps your very life... unless I chose to SURPASS the Law... and FORGIVE you... and thus allow you to live... rather than calling for justice).
Apparently you have never been to a slaughter where cows are killed for food and to make garments out of their hide. They know dang well what's going on and they sure as heck are NOT offering themselves willingly.
The animals you speak of have been abused; of course they have an issue. They know that this is not what it's supposed to be about. Mass slaughtering is the same as taking them for their hides - vanity. We should take ONLY what we need to in order to live... and nothing more. Unfortunately, living in "the land of plenty" supersedes this, doesn't it? To the shame of us all.
You are talking plain silly talk if you expect anyone to believe this you are going to have to make up something at least somewhat believable.
No, not really. I understand your chagrin here. But I think that if you spoke with a small farmer, one who truly cares for its livestock and raises it in a moral and ethical manner, you would find out differently.
AGuest: Why do they do this willingly? Because UNLIKE US... they have faith in the resurrection.
Tor: Now I know you have gone off the deep end.
No, I only spoke the truth to you. Seriously. There's actually NO difference between us and animals... except the vessels we reside in... the bodies that we and they have... which bodies allow US greater freedom... of thought and deed... and which restrict them. If they COULD speak, they would... and we would be amazed.
AGuest: They KNOW that the Most Holy One of Israel will keep His promise to them... and restore them. UNLIKE US... they understand that THIS life... is NOT the "reality," but merely a REFLECTION of the reality.
Tor: Now you are saying our lives are not even real and animals realize this but humans don't! Wow, this is amazing stuff.
I am, I did... and you're right: truly amazing. You don't know the half of it.
You speak of death as if its alive and is able to think and demand things. Has cognitive faculties. This is getting to be a very weird post to read.
Death is alive... just as God and Christ are alive. Death does think and does demand things. That is why Death is called "the LAST enemy," and why Death is addressed "Where is your sting?". And why Death... whose name is Abbadon... must be controlled until he is destroyed. The Most Holy One of Israel does have SOME control over Death... which is why only the FIRSTBORN of all of Egypt had their breath taken. Death... would have taken them all.
Satan was the spawn of God as well as Adam. Do you agree?
Sorry, no, I do not. The spawn... i.e., seed... i.e. children... of God... were initially only two: Adam... and Christ. These two were the only sons of God. Satan... like Michael... was a angel... of the cherub rank... but not a son. For angels... are NOT sons... but ministers TO the sons. That is what they brought into existence FOR: to minister TO the sons.
Did God create the chief agent of death?
No, He did not. He created a spirit being... one of the two most beautifuls of all spirit beings, including the Son... which being, after becoming self-asorbed with his own beauty, decided he didn't like the position he had been created for... and wanted more. God wouldn't give him more, however, and so that being jumped shipped and became the chief agent of God's ENEMY... Death. The last enemy.
AGuest: Like any "living" thing, in order for Death to live... it must FEED. Eat. The "food" that Death "eats"... is earthly lives. Animal, plant... human.
Tor: Now you are creeping me out like some bad horror movie where you see zombies running around eating people, only this time you have gone even farther to say that an occurence such as death actually has the capacity to feed on plants and animals and humans. Whoever is telling you this stuff needs help.
Disease feeds on its host, dear Tor. Fire "feeds." In fact, unless a fire has food... fuel... it will die out. It needs oxygen to breath... and fuel to consume. It is ALIVE. And so is Death.
AGuest: Adam sold himself... and his children... INCLUDING you and me... as a slave... TO DEATH.
Tor: This is theoretically impossible. Even according to you, all Adam did was ignore a warning.
I'm sorry if you got that from my response; I should have been more clear: Adam ignored the warning from God and, in the hope that he would be granted power over what God had warned him against, he made a deal with one whom he thought could give him such power... Death... in exchange for his life and that of his progeny. In his mind, only two had power over Death: God and Death. He was wrong: even Death is subject to God.
Impossible. It is impossible to sell or buy death, it is a thing that happens, not somethign you can buy and sell.
It is no more impossible than purchasing... or should I say, repurchasing... life. And life is repurchased... with blood.
Adam made no such bargain, nor is it even possible to do such a thing.
No, truly. He did. He "sold" us into slavery. There is only one thing that has COMPLETE dominion over us, right now: Death. The bodies we bear are those of Death's - their is death and sin and corruption IN them. The bodies we WILL have... are those from God. In HIS image. They are incorruptible, without sin and without death IN them.
There you go again thinking that an occurence can think and demand something. Even if someone was dying and death was taking his life, it cannot take the life of someone standing next to him or on the other side of the world.
Actually, it can. And it does. So very often, people cry, "Why did GOD take him/her?" God... did not take anyone. Death took them. As it can take the life of virtually anyone it WISHES... anywhere... at any time. The only lives it CANNOT take, are those restricted from Death by God. Thus, I give you the account of Job... and the fact that ONLY the firstborn of Egypt died.
So death has a hold on God and can command God to pay him. I thought God set the rules and owes nothing to anyone.
(Smiling) The Most Holy One of Israel not only sets the rules... but honors them. Sometimes at great cost. What honorable man would set rules in his household then allow outsiders to run all over them? Death does not have a hold on God; Death is in subjection to God... and God controls Death. And you are correct: God doesn't owe a THING to Death - Adam does... and we do. GOD... has provided a PAYMENT... for Adam's error... and OUR debt. His Son, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.
What about Satan, wasn't he a son of God too?
See above (smiling).
So paying Death by killing millions of willing animals did nothing to appease this Thing that happens called death.
Ever seen a wildfire? How much does it have to consume before it is satiated? How much will it consume? How much CAN it?
It. Death.... is cognizant of the fact that an equaling did not happen with this and demanded a perfect life for a perfect life it claimed?
This is really getting worse as time goes on here.
Well, you could have stopped at any time. But you chose to continue, so...
Well, it should have been able to hold him. It.... Death....... demanded payment, thought He got it then alas he was cheated. I would say He is definitely not going to let that go idly by. I bet he went after some plants, animals etc on a rampage!
YES!!!! You GOT IT!!! Good thing you kept on reading, eh?? (BIG SMILE) And there was no problem with "cheating" him, for he "cheated" to begin with. It was never a honorable contract from the get go and so, it was/is an "all is fair... in LOVE... AND war."
Faith is something a person has, not something that lives with or apart and is a separate entity any more than death is. It is certainly not a literal or physical key to anything.
Ummmm... not quite. It is not an entity, as Death is. And it is not something one has, per se, but is given. And once received (even if only a mustard seed worth), it is something to be "exercised." Like a muscle. It is not inactive, dormant, but alive and expanding. Faith... is a fruit of God's spirit... by means of which we bear MORE fruit... as well as a GIFT of that spirit.
How does this sound for logic. I have a son who ignored my warning so he must die for this. His own life is now worth nothing, so my other son who listened to me must die to ransom the first ones offspring. Make sense. Absolutely not, yet this is your explanation of things.
Hmmmm... try this: I have a son who ignored my warning and he is GOING to die, because that was the consquence of what he did (he ate something poisonous that had no anecdote because the only anecdate was blood... which had never been spilled before - it had never NEEDED to be spilled...). And so now, his own life... his blood... is worth nothing (cause it's got poison in it, which is why he's dying- duh!). What do do? So my other son who listened to me, who did NOT consume poison, and so whose blood IS still valuabled... OFFERS... to PROVIDE the first anecdote... to pour out HIS blood... and thus provide a TRANSFUSION... to save, at a minimum, the first son's offspring. What a son, yes? Slight problem: there are so many offspring, that the second son's going to have to give ALL of his blood. And that most probably means he's gonna die. Hmmmmm... Make sense?
Animals understand the difference between when we kill them for solely for their skin versus when we kill them to make them pay for our sins. I have a real problem with that. I grew up on a farm and killed many a chicken etc.
Even a dog knows the difference between being kicked... and tripped over. How is that?
So how about a cow that's killed for food, but their hide is also going to be used for a leather garment to make us look good AND keep us warm. Is this cow really confused at this point??? Tell me, how does this cow know what is going to happen to all its parts before it dies???
The cow... knows its purpose. ALL of creation... has a purpose. Every living, breathing soul. And it has no problem with that purpose. It is we who have deviated... and those who are subjected to that deviation know it.
Who set the price in that it had to be killing of innocent life.
Unless the life IS innocent, it has no value. SinFUL life... has no value; it is sinLESS life that does.
Who holds the cards and sets the rules. You say its not God, if so he is not all powerful.
In this particular deal, Death required a "wage"... a payment. Lives. A sinLESS life... is worth a hundred myriads, if not more... of sinFUL lives.
I cannot see myself killing an innocent animal for sins I may have committed. I cannot see making someone else pay for my sins.
Sigh! Exactly, Toreador. And that was part of the problem: Israel did not HAVE to make such sactifices! Did Christ? What animal did he ever offer up in this way? He... offered HIMSELF. Israel... could have SURPASSED the Law... by means of LOVE... borne out in justice, mercy and forgiveness. If they had ALL learned to FORGIVE one another, there would have no NEED for sacrifices. Let me give you an example: say, I, a sinner, was taking my doves up to the temple because, well, I had committed some "transgression" and needed atonement. The priest had a choice: take and slaughter my little doves... OR FORGIVE ME AND SEND ME HOME. And the Law would not have condemned him for doing so because LOVE... is the Law's FULFILLMENT. LOVE... "covers... a multitude... of transgressions." Problem was, the folks were SO het up with pointin the finger and busting people out... that the sacrificial arrangement HAD to be there! THEY made it that way.
When they left Egypt, there was no "law," per se. There was no priestly class - the heads of households offered up sacrifices on behalf of their families. And they didn't just go around slaughtering animals for the heck of it. When a sacrifice WAS offered... it was a BIG HONKIN' DEAL. As it should have been.
That WE... puny earthling man have PROFANED the thing... does not mean that animals have also rejected it. Again, they are faithful, when we are not.
A lot of innocent animal life could have been spared if God had not waited a few thousand years before demanding the innocent death of his son to pay for the sins of others, wouldnt you agree?
Sorry, no, I do not. Rather than getting mad at God for "taking so long," I am grateful for the mercy His is showing in doing so. Not ALL of mankind is bad, per se. Some are doing the best they can, given their particular circumstances. Does that mean they didn't even deserve the right, the gift of being born at all? It is because of God's mercy... that I have come into existence here. And that my children have. And you have. Had He hastily meted out vengeance, I don't know if I would have been here... or if my children would have. True, life is tough... but I still love it.
And when I think that perhaps I shouldn't, that I should just give up and give in... maybe lay down and die, even... I am given the privilege of having an exchange such as this one. YOU are apart of the beauty in my life, Toreador... you and people like you. Why? Because by means of this discussion, and perhaps others, you have become a part of my life, a part of the sum total of who and what I am. YOU are the reason animals gave/give themselves willingly... and the reason that my Lord did.
I seriously doubt you got any of this from God's son.
Hey, faith is not a possession of all. But I have spoken nothing but truth to you, just as I have received it from the Truth.
IN all seriousness; If you are hearing voices telling you this completely wierd stuff above you may need to seek medical help.
Hmmmm... that's exactly what Carey Barber and the "elders" said. When my Lord had me speak and shoot holes in their misleading, false and totally untruthful doctrines. Funny how you and they are on the same page with this...
I wish you the very best of all things too, and may you have peace,
I'm going to take that with the sincerity I know you intend... and wish you the very same.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,