A STUNNINGLY simple question about JOHN 3:16 "For God so Loved the world."

by Terry 384 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry
    So, when Jesus died so did all those human lifes he could have sired.

    Hang on there, Pardner!

    You are getting carried away with rhetoric.

    Your statement is silly on the face of it.

    What has never lived does not exist. What does not exist cannot die.

    You are confusing a "potentiality" with an actuality.

    Otherwise, every time a citizen in the U.S.A. dies, so dies a President of the United States or an astronaut or an Olympic Gold Medalist!

    How? That person could potentially have been those things!

    Obviously, this is preposterous nincompoopery!

    Once you destroy the integrity of your own vocabulary through rhetorical distortions, you cease to be able to think rationally!

    Now, please rethink what you have said here and realize it is tomfoolery.

  • lalliv01
    lalliv01
    What has never lived does not exist. What does not exist cannot die.

    I agree with what you are saying,Terry, but then, who was God concerned for in the Garden of Eden? Mankind had not been born so why the need for redemption? Who are you saying God "so loved" if mankind did not yet exist? Or did God love non-existent imperfect humans then? Why be concerned with everlasting life for creatures that could not die since they did not exist?

    Why love what does not exist? Very close,maybe,to what you're asking.

    I think that what God loved is what did exist, HIM. God loves himself, His name, His reputation. He is spoken of as doing things,even things He is reluctant to do, for his "names-sake." I think God loved mankind "so", or "because" of his name, his honor,his reputation.

    Now,I'm being serious here and am not trying to trick or play with you: no "tomfoolery" here, at least not intentionally.

  • RAF
    RAF

    Sorry but I didn't feel like to read the whole thread ... was just curious and fell on this :

    What has never lived does not exist. What does not exist cannot die.
    You are confusing a "potentiality" with an actuality.

    How can you say something like that ? ... Do you know what potential means exactly ? potentiality can't be opposed to actuality (it just can't or that would means that from actuality we know what's potential ... and we can't have any global idea about that for good .. do we ?).

  • Terry
    Terry

    Sorry but I didn't feel like to read the whole thread ... was just curious and fell on this :

    What has never lived does not exist. What does not exist cannot die.
    You are confusing a "potentiality" with an actuality.

    How can you say something like that ? ... Do you know what potential means exactly ? potentiality can't be opposed to actuality (it just can't or that would means that from actuality we know what's potential ... and we can't have any global idea about that for good .. do we ?).

    Let's start with pure numbers.

    If you have a pair of dice, for example, you can determine probability based on the actual number of sides of the dice. We are only dealing with probability here and not "potentiality" yet. But, I'm setting the stage in such a way we can model what is to come conceptually.

    One die (plural: dice) has six sides. There is a side for one spot, two spots, etc. up to six spots.

    When you roll that die you will get one of those sides face up. The probability that any particular number will turn up is one out of six or 1/6.

    The number of times you repeat this experiment (we'll just call it an experiment since we are gathering data) starts a series of "throws".

    Here is where intuition goes awry. In the short run, (a few throws) as compared with the long run (infinite throws) various random patterns will appear which may contain a long string of a particular number. These clusters of events cause people to believe in "luck" (either bad or good).

    At no time does the die itself ever "keep track" of what number has turned up in the past. It itself is deaf, dumb and blind. Therefore, the odds of a particular number turning up are always the same. There is no such thing as a "lucky number" in probability. The reality of the short term (as opposed to infinite tosses) is that patterns emerge.

    Beliefs about luck abound based on personal experience with the "short term." People develop a kind of sampling sense of how often things occur based on their experiences. These beliefs are skewed by the short term. Random is random and there is no such thing per se as luck.

    Luck is what happens AFTER THE FACT looking back on an outcome that was expected.

    Now, what does all that have to do with POTENTIAL versus ACTUAL?

    There are people who keep track of the numbers which occur on winning lottery tickets. If a number keeps popping up it is called "hot" or "lucky" and numbers that have NOT YET appeared are called "over due" or "likely" to occur. Choosing these numbers is said to increase your chances of winning.

    If this were true, however, everybody would win all the time. It isn't true mathematically because the POTENTIAL is never the ACTUAL.

    Why?

    A POTENTIAL floats beyond real world context.

    An ACTUAL is rooted in reality.

    A POTENTIAL can be force-fitted into any generality or imagined scenario to build an argument and make it appear logical.

    An ACTUAL is what really happens.

    Example:

    The end of Six thousand years of Human Existence was parlayed by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses as POTENTIALLY the advent of ARMAGEDDON! All the neat arguments were built around this potential event.

    ACTUALLY, it didn't happen.

    Why?

    A POTENTIAL is not an ACTUAL.

    A POTENTIAL is only a useful tool in planning and plotting a future event when it is based on real world probability matched by real world events.

    Is that clear? Or, do I need to give more examples?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Sorry but I didn't feel like to read the whole thread ... was just curious and fell on this :

    What has never lived does not exist. What does not exist cannot die.
    You are confusing a "potentiality" with an actuality.

    How can you say something like that ? ... Do you know what potential means exactly ? potentiality can't be opposed to actuality (it just can't or that would means that from actuality we know what's potential ... and we can't have any global idea about that for good .. do we ?).

    An ACTUAL is rooted in reality.

    A POTENTIAL can be force-fitted into any generality or imagined scenario to build an argument and make it appear logical.

    An ACTUAL is what really happens.

    Example:

    The end of Six thousand years of Human Existence was parlayed by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses as POTENTIALLY the advent of ARMAGEDDON! All the neat arguments were built around this potential event.

    ACTUALLY, it didn't happen.

    Why?

    A POTENTIAL is not an ACTUAL.

    You have to plug in at various points in your predictive scenario real events in real contexts to extract your Actual from your Potential.

    It is like looking back on a string of throws of the dice and pronouncing the sevens as "lucky".

    The probability of the 7's coming up were exactly the same as any other number.

    Anybody playing dice is a Potential winner in the same way they are a Potential loser. In other words, the word has no real-world application until AFTER events have played out in reality.

  • Bring_the_Light
    Bring_the_Light
    Obviously, this is preposterous nincompoopery!

    Indeed

  • Bring_the_Light
    Bring_the_Light
    Beliefs about luck abound based on personal experience with the "short term." People develop a kind of sampling sense of how often things occur based on their experiences. These beliefs are skewed by the short term. Random is random and there is no such thing per se as luck.

    I can never get over people saying there's no such thing as "luck". Sure there is no such thing as "carrying the quality of having better things happen consistenly against odds" such as a supernatural power. BUT there IS such thing as "luck".

    Luck is an event where something happens in excess of the governing odds. If you win at the Casino, you are correctly described as "lucky".

  • RAF
    RAF
    Sorry but I didn't feel like to read the whole thread ... was just curious and fell on this :
    What has never lived does not exist. What does not exist cannot die.
    You are confusing a "potentiality" with an actuality.
    How can you say something like that ? ... Do you know what potential means exactly ? potentiality can't be opposed to actuality (it just can't or that would means that from actuality we know what's potential ... and we can't have any global idea about that for good .. do we ?).
    A POTENTIAL floats beyond real world context.
    An ACTUAL is rooted in reality.
    A POTENTIAL can be force-fitted into any generality or imagined scenario to build an argument and make it appear logical.
    An ACTUAL is what really happens.

    Over rationalising doesn't help Terry ... are you comparing Actual Reality with any Potential (your examples only talks about probability) Probability is not synonym to Potential (probability is about what we know about to calculate or extrapolate from its a known potential not the unknow potential) ... now you can tell me that I can't talk about what I don't know as potential ... so how can you about what is not potential ? ... have science discorver everything yet for instance ? NO (I guess I can be quite sure about that).

  • Terry
    Terry

    I can never get over people saying there's no such thing as "luck". Sure there is no such thing as "carrying the quality of having better things happen consistenly against odds" such as a supernatural power. BUT there IS such thing as "luck".

    Luck is an event where something happens in excess of the governing odds. If you win at the Casino, you are correctly described as "lucky".

    Luck isn't there waiting. Luck doesn't reside in a time or space the way probability resides in time and space.

    Luck is a label we put on events that have already transpired AFTER they happen.

    Think about it.

  • Terry
    Terry

    There are things which are possible, yet, not probable.

    possible but not yet in existence.
    www.mariner.org/chesapeakebay/native/vocab.html

    A potential describes what is NOT yet in existence.

    A probable thing already exists. It has not ocurred yet.

    The side of the two dice which adds up to 7 is already a probability contained in every throw. That probability never changes because it exists as a mathematical reality.

    A potential run of luck does not exist the way a probability exists.

    Can you not see the difference?

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