Thiis one's long, but here's a letter I sent in open dialog with the elder of my wife's congregation...Let's hear the input... I appreciate your candor, and admittedly I can see an effort to not be overbearing in your response to my questions. My main concern is trusting the organization. When I read John 14(the whole chapter because I"m never satified with just a verse), I don't see anything that provides for some "organization" to lead us to the salvation that we all seek in our christian walk. Of course JW's lean to Matthew 24:45-47 which is also bible based. However if we look at the question of whether Jesus came to approve the organization in the spring of 1919, would we not have to look at this blessed event from an historical perspective? If Jesus acknowledged the Society as his “faithful and discreet slave organization” and therefore appointed them “over all his earthly interests” in 1919 then there is a chance that they are still God’s organization today. But if he didn’t make that appointment in 1919, then would you agree that there is no chance they could be such an organization no matter what they are teaching today? If so, The only one way to know what decision Jesus would have made in 1919, and know that the Society could be God’s organization today is to examine the same teachings they say Jesus examined in 1918-1919 to see if they could have passed such an exam. Jesus would have of course only been looking at what the society was teaching up until 1919, and most of those materials are no longer printed(though available on the internet). Since I know that is not really an option, the Jehovah's Witnesses " Proclaimers of God's Kingdom" should be an adequate source. According to Matthew 7:2 and Society standards the criteria should be; 1) The Right Teachings 2) The proper Time(as reffered to by Brother F. Franz) 3) Teaching that God revealed his word & 4)Rejected by Human Wisdom (per the Watchtower p114 June 1st,2001) The second coming... Jesus would have noticed what they were teaching about his Second Coming, or “invisible presence” t. – Matthew 24: Today it says he came in 1914 - Then it was 1874.(Proclaimers p 46-47 & p133) Conclusion: 1874 was 1) Not the right date 2)Nor the right time to be teaching it 3)it was not revealed in God's word and 4)It was a date Brother Russell had been given by Nelson Barber in 1876(rejected by human wisdom) Jesus returned in 1914, and neither President Russell nor President Rutherford ever knew it? God "selected" these men for his sole "channel of communication” but never communicateted when His Son had returned? What are the chances that “the God of truth” would deliberately allow his earthly channel to misinform the whole world about his Son’s return for almost seven decades (1876-1943)? Luke’s parallel account in chapter 12 says Jesus said that he would be “happy” only if ‘on arriving (he)found them watching for his return.’ But he would not have found them watching in 1914 because they believed he had already arrived forty years earlier. Was what was going on in the Society’s history up to 1919 that agree with the Sociiety's interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47? I'll save you the trouble of looking for the Society's answer, it's right here; "Those in Christendom professing to be Jesus’ disciples who did not discern his invisible presence, from and after 1914, therefore proved to be asleep and unworthy of receiving any privileges in connection with dispensing spiritual food." If proved that Russel, Rutherford and possibly Knorr were asleep and unworthy of receiving Jesus’ appointment, then wouldn’t the Society’s identical lack of discernment mean that they too were asleep and therefore just as unworthy of receiving any privileges in the dispensing of spiritual food? This is just a portion of waht really worries me, and I realize that Proverbs "explanation of light" is the standard answer, but it is obvious that today as the Society teached that Charles Russell was not Jesus’ “faithful and discreet slave,” then what they were teaching from 1897 down till 1919 was not true. Throughout the Bible, GOd has chosen many humans to carry out his work, they made human errors, but I believe they got God's law correct. That did not happen in this case...If in 1919 Jesus (or anyone else) had asked the question in Matthew 24:45, “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?” they would have answered according to what they believed – “Charles Taze Russell.” There wasn’t anyone on earth or in heaven who could change Rutherford ’s mind until he himself changed it in 1927. The Societys history does not fit the interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47. The Society explains it in the January 15, 1994 Watchtower where they say, “In 1919 that slave was identified as the remnant of anointed Christians.” But that’s not true. They didn’t identify that slave this way until 1927 . Don't forget, for the purpose of this historical examination, the date we are dealing with would have to be up until 1919, that is afterall time the Society says Jesus made his examination.. Speaking of Improper Food at an Improper time, In February 0f 1918 wasn't Rutherford begining the ampaign for "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"? 1)Not the Right teaching, 2)The Wrong time, 3)Teaching Not revealed by God in the Bible, 4)Human Wisdom.. This is what makes me worry everytime I hear: THE SOCIETY THE ORGANIZATION JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION JEHOVAH’S VISIBLE ORGANIZATION GOD’S THEOCRATIC ORGANIZATION JEHOVAH’S EARTHLY ORGANIZATION GOD’S CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION GOD’S SPIRIT-DIRECTED ORGANIZATION THE FAITHFUL & DISCREET SLAVE ORGANIZATION I know this is your leadership, but there's a history that is sometimes ignored by the Society, and to hear them based on my beliefs and John 14, make me fear for my family's salvation. I know you are a good person, as are many of the people in the congregation, but I'm always on guard to not say the wrong thing. I know there would be consequenses that would make my wife uncomfortable. But it also leaves me in a dilema of how to sit still and get used tohearing things that my experience and faith tell me may not be true. For example, the terms, “errors”"mistakes”“misplaced zeal”“unrealized hopes” “previous failures”“misinterpretations”“misunderstandings”“our understanding”“misplaced optimism”“wrong expectations”“hopes and xpectations”“premature expectations”“misplaced expectations”“disappointed expectations”“errors in their teachings”“incomplete concepts”“inaccurate concepts”“serious disappointments”“formerly cherished views”“mistakes in their understanding”“views in need of refinement”“an expressed opinion” “cherished errors”“wrong beliefs”“old truths”“past truths”“expectations needing some adjustment”and “matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed”, are all terms that I run into when being informed about the history of the Society. Each of these "buzz" words, for lack of a better term, are tied to events proclaimed or doctrines esablished. we live in a "gray" when it comes to matters of the "world" but since the Bible shows us our path to salvation, doesn't it read "black & white" for you? Here's the response; Wow! to say that I appreciate your research would be an understatement. Not sure I understand where your going with this though. I can see where you might have some issues with the WT Society based on your research. It's easy for me though. I look at what has been done in my life, also the good that is being done and taught worldwide, and I still believe its the best way of life.As a family head I would much rather for my family to pursue this way of life over any other. I can't trust research where this Franze guy has posed himself of as a former president of the WT Society. From what I have been taught he is the nephew of Fred Franz ( See Attachments) and was disfellowshipped before becoming a sworn enemy of the WT Society and an apostate. He has no credibility in my eyes. I'm sure you are sincerely searching for th truth, but I think this is where we have to agree to disagree theologically. Lets say for example that everything this guy says is true, where does that leave us. What is he offering in it's place? If it's something better, as I told you before, I'm all ears. But I can't give up what's working for me in my life for nothing just because someone casts doubts on what I have been taught. One scripture that comes to mind is at Acts 5:38,39 (Actually the passage from verse 29 to 39 would help) The point Gamaliel made is an excelent point. If this scheme or work (WT Society) is from men it will be overthrown, BUT if it is from God we might be found fighters actually against God.
Dealing with an elder
by kzjw 14 Replies latest jw friends
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inbyathread
What a response. I did notice that the elder mentioned (that other Franz character) but I didn't see Rays name in your posted comments. The elder stated that Ray posed himself as the president of the society. Never saw that, never read it. Would like to ask where did HE see it. Fred was president. Ray was only a member of the governing body.
As to "where will we go?" Boy are they blind!! Please remind him that it is not WHERE but to WHOM shall we follow. -
OnTheWayOut
Here's the response; Wow! to say that I appreciate your research would be an understatement. Not sure I understand where your going with this though. I can see where you might have some issues with the WT Society based on your research. It's easy for me though. I look at what has been done in my life, also the good that is being done and taught worldwide, and I still believe its the best way of life.As a family head I would much rather for my family to pursue this way of life over any other. I can't trust research where this Franze guy has posed himself of as a former president of the WT Society. From what I have been taught he is the nephew of Fred Franz ( See Attachments) and was disfellowshipped before becoming a sworn enemy of the WT Society and an apostate. He has no credibility in my eyes. I'm sure you are sincerely searching for th truth, but I think this is where we have to agree to disagree theologically. Lets say for example that everything this guy says is true, where does that leave us. What is he offering in it's place? If it's something better, as I told you before, I'm all ears. But I can't give up what's working for me in my life for nothing just because someone casts doubts on what I have been taught. One scripture that comes to mind is at Acts 5:38,39 (Actually the passage from verse 29 to 39 would help) The point Gamaliel made is an excelent point. If this scheme or work (WT Society) is from men it will be overthrown, BUT if it is from God we might be found fighters
I see the footprints of CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT here in your letter. You don't need much feedback because
you are doing a fine job. If it were me answering the elder, my response would be as follows:To this elder: Your response totally ignores the possibility that Jesus' 1919 examination found the WT organization lacking.
You grant that it might even be true. There are Buddist monks that swear that their way of life is the best way, as well as
a slew of rabbis and priests and atheists and scientists. This really is a dodge of the issues. If I thought the best way of life
was raising moral children to think for themselves, a virginal priest just could not agree. If you say the best way of life is telling
people that the message you carry is "the truth" yet you don't examine the possibility for yourself, a thinking person just could
not agree.C. T. Russell said that "truth no matter the source is still truth." The nephew of Fred Franz offers information that can be
examined for it's value, regardless of what people think of the source. If we decided that he might be lying or misleading, the
point still remains to examine the Watchtower's claims of being chosen as God's organization or as a faithful and discreet slave
by Jesus in 1919. Discretion would cause such a slave to remain silent until it was positive of "the truth" of matters instead of
changing their doctrines time and again. (I am not sure why he brings up Ray Franz as you never mention him in the portion of
letter you show, but only use the words of Fred Franz.)Something better than taking an unproven theology to people at their homes would be to fully test the theology. Your organization
says that everyone who is not a JW should do that. Well, do the same yourself before you indiscreetly proclaim such theology
as "the truth" at anymore doors. You want something better, so I will offer it. Examine the Bible for yourself without the
influence of the Watchtower organization. Think for yourself. Whatever relationship you want with God and Christ, develop it
directly. You should be familiar with the example of a glass of water with a drop of poison in it. Would you drink it? No matter
how happy your life is, you are carrying that poison to others, and pretending it isn't there.If you are so sure that any scheme of men will be overthrown, then you are right. But who knows when? The Roman Catholic
Church is not overthrown, so they could make the same claim along with all other teachings and philosophies and sciences that
are still around today. Just as the Roman Catholic Church has been around a long time, I fear that your man-made organization
might not be overthrown in my lifetime, but off into the future. I don't want to waste my life without doing a simple examination
of the theology, JUST AS YOUR LITERATURE SAYS I SHOULD DO. -
darth frosty
This is a quote from a post of terry's, I believe the sentiment applies to your friend.
I'm currently of the considered opinion that facts are only important at the beginning.
The beginning of what?
Almost everything we are considering being associated with.
Like dogs sniffing other dogs' puckers, we silly humans pause to catch a whiff before we proceed to screw with (or be screwed with) strange new enterprises.
We vet our prospective mates only at the beginning of the relationship. We vet our religion (only if we are making a shift) with quasi-skeptical questions until our guard is dropped altogether.
The PROOF portion of our sifting and weighing and analysis comes at the start. After that, sadly, we seem to make a transition in our own mind to DEFENDING what what chosen no-matter-what happens.
I wish I could find the name of the study that was made about what people do what are exposed to a sudden attack on their belief system. In this study(I'll search for it and see if I can find it) any blow to confidence in one's invested beliefs is immediately followed by a strong reaction. Unexpectedly, that reaction is not disbelief or even skeptical reconsideration. Astonishingly, it is a redoubling of one's CONFIDENCE!
This is troubling.
If we only defend and never reconsider anew--what chance is there for us to change from shaky, ill-proved beliefs to something more substantial?
Not much.
Sigh....
When you have that argument with you parents or former friends at the Kingdom Hall and you dump all your refutations about the Society on them and all your rebuttals about the Governing Body---all you really accomplish is to make them dig down deeper into their entrenched mentality!!
They have to hit bottom on their own with some personal experience that smacks them upside their own head!
That is why--counter-intuitively, being disfellowshipped can only result in a temporary window of escape for your belief system to reconsider, weigh, parse, examine and come to NEW conclusions.
If you don't do that---you'll crawl back on your belly and reattach the chains to your own ankle.
Gasp!
How very sad, indeed.
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daniel-p
Ahh, the "where will we go?" argument. The last haven of an idiot. How about getting the hell out and worrying about where you'll "go" later?
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lavendar
kzjw,
Excellent job!
You raised some very good points in your letter to the Elder. He will NEVER admit it, but I'm sure you planted some seeds of doubts and questions in his mind. Let's hope these eventually sprout and grow someday into the realization that the WTS is NOT God's true organization on earth.
Lavendar
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Fadeout
OK reading the elder's response it looked like he mistook your reference to "F.Franz" as a reference to Ray Franz, and he went into a whole tirade about how Ray is an apostate and not to be trusted.
You might explain that you were not talking about Ray Franz, you were talking about Fred Franz, president of the WTS from 1976-1992. Ask him if that correction solves the problem of him not trusting the research.
OWTO nailed the point about work from men being overthrown... Catholic Church is a perfect example. Not only that, but are we advised to "wait for it to be overthrown" or are we to "Flee from false religion?" Although using the term "false religion" in reference to the WTS might be a little harsher than you want to be at this point.
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garybuss
My observations as well as my personal experiences have convinced me that all the Witness adults I know are Witnesses in spite of the teachings rather than because of the teachings. Witnessism is a culture of comfort. It's not intellectual, it's not rational, it's not pragmatic, and it's not reasonable. That's why facts, reason, and logic don't work on Witnesses.
What will work, is a social set back, because that's an element of the culture, and social acceptance is the big reward for being a Witness. Rejection and the fear of rejection is a powerful attraction to defective people with multiple inabilities. I've noticed that people with a social anxiety disorder are very comfortable in the Witnesses because social contact comes to them. In a traditional context, I have to apply myself and go out to seek social contact. I have to exert myself more and go out more to achieve acceptance, and exert even more to achieve approval and recognition. The Witnesses have all that packaged as a benefit, a reward for compliance and for furthering the goals of the Society.
I believe I could show a believing Witness a picture of Gene Smalley screwing a hooker on a blackjack table in Vegas with a cross tattooed on his ass and the Witness wouldn't quit the Society. The Witness would shun me for showing him the picture. -
Octarine Prince
"I believe I could show a believing Witness a picture of Gene Smalley screwing a hooker on a blackjack table in Vegas with a cross tattooed on his ass and the Witness wouldn't quit the Society. The Witness would shun me for showing him the picture."
LOL
That, my friends, is why I got out and will stay out. Zombies. -
jamiebowers
I hope you point out a few things to this elder:
1. How is it that being in the organization is working for him when there are thousands coming forward and claiming that they were sexually abused as children within the organization?
2. How will he ever see the real truth if he thinks anyone saying anything against the WTB&TS are apostates and not to be trusted?
3. The society has bragged for years about their successes in court. If Ray Franz was a liar, why didn't they sue him in court and win? If the sex abuse survivors are liars, why did the
society lose in court? If the press that exposed the society's membership with the U.N. were lying, why weren't they sued?
4. If he's so gung ho on waiting to see if the organization will be taken down by Jehovah for being evildoers, doesn't he want to be on the correct, just side?