Two Questions: 1) Hesitancy discussing salvation, 2) Marriage in Paradise?

by EverAStudent 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • EverAStudent
    EverAStudent

    For the better part of a year, my wife and I have been meeting with a team of JWs. They teach us JW dogmas, and we use it as an opportunity to expose them to the orthodox gospel of Jesus Christ. It took quite a long time to figure out what their "plan of salvation" was, as they seemed reluctant to just spell it out. Why this reluctance (this is not a rhetorical question, I would like to know genuinely why their "plan of salvation" seems so cloaked in secrecy, looking for authoritative answers if anyone knows)?

    A second question: In straightforward language, what is the JW doctrine regarding marriage and procreation during the Millennium, and after the Millennium?

    Thank you.

    A Student

  • marmot
    marmot

    Probably because authoritative answers are harder to back-track on than vague waffling. The WT society has a history of doctrinal flip-flops explained away as "new understanding" also known as "new light".

    As for the post-paradise questions, I was always told that those were issues that would be explained to us when we got to that point, and arguing over them now would be futile.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I will start you off. Others may have better thoughts than I.

    JW's don't want to answer your questions about salvation because they
    don't want to get on the negative subject of their difference with
    "once saved always saved" and they believe that salvation only comes with
    learning the truth, proclaiming the truth, enduring in that work until the end.

    Their leaders put "works" ahead of all else, even though they won't admit it.
    This is because the real purpose of the members is to sell more literature.

    On marriage and procreation during the millenium, they teach that married
    ones that live through Armageddon stay married forever. Beyond that, they
    don't say much. It seems that married ones can have children during the
    millenium, who would be subject to the same final test at the end of the
    1000 years that everyone else faces. They have not said that single or
    widowed ones that live through Armageddon cannot marry during the
    millenium, so it appears they can marry and have children. They say that
    anyone resurrected will be "as the angels" (or something like that quoted from
    Jesus' words) and will not marry, therefore not have children. They say they
    don't know if that is permanent or will be a temporary situation.

    The haziness of that situation seems to be designed to allow the focus of JW's
    to be on surviving through Armageddon, hoping it will come soon. That causes
    members to work harder (in theory) because of their hope, selling more
    literature.

  • EverAStudent
    EverAStudent

    Thank you very much for the quick responses. These preliminary responses mesh well with what I have been observing. Particularly with regard to the works-oriented aspect of the "opportunity" to "prove your worthiness to gain everlasting life" during the Millennium. Praise the Lord that my salvation is entirely dependent on God and not my worthiness!

    Follow-up question to Onthewayout: In very early meetings with the JWs, I asked them about the cost of the magazines and books they have been dropping off, was I going to be billed, or what? They responded that these were gifts (so far they have given me some useful stuff: Reasonong from the Scriptures, the Kingdom Interlinear, some pamphlets, some Awake!, and Watchtowers, etc.). Is the pioneer paying for this, and will they at some point demand (ask?) for contributions? How does this work? No JW I have met with so far (or over the years) has actually tried to sell me anything. Just curious what the typical promotional activity looks like.

    Thanks again for all the advice and answers.

    A Student

  • Maddie
    Maddie

    Welcome to JWD EveraStudent

    At one time the JW's used to charge for any literature placed but that was stopped some years ago because of being able to claim Charity status. JW's are expected to contribute for it themselves.

    Maddie

  • sacolton
    sacolton

    This video explains it best ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGtTsp15KJw

    Created by an ACTIVE JW! :)

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Welcome. The Watchtower idea on salvation is that everyone not a baptised JW will be eternally destroyed at Armageddon. The only exception are children of JWs that are too young to be baptised. On present stats that is over 6 billion deaths. See http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/salvation.htm for Watchtower quotes. The reason that you are not told this is that it is an embarrassing doctrine, so JWs will normal beat around the bush.

    Most people that die prior to Armageddon will be resurrected, unless they died in judgement periods. http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/resurrection.htm

    Regarding marriage in the New System, this has changed several times. It is one of the doctrines that many people find very upsetting, particularly sisters that have not been able to find a partner. As the scripture is applied to those being resurrected to heaven, it is crazy for the WTS to try to indicate it has any relevance for people living on earth.

    As far as i can work out, people resurrected onto earth are forbidden to marriage, but married couples surviving through Armageddon (as part of the Great Crowd) are allowed to remain married. Below are some quotes.

    ***

    w549/15p.575QuestionsFromReaders***WhatisthecorrectunderstandingofJesus’wordsatLuke20:34-36(NW):"Thechildrenofthissystemofthingsmarryandaregiveninmarriage,butthosewhohavebeencountedworthyofgainingthatsystemofthingsandtheresurrectionfromthedeadneithermarrynoraregiveninmarriage.Infact,neithercantheydieanymore,fortheyareliketheangels,andtheyareGod’schildrenbybeingchildrenoftheresurrection"? ... After that final test there will definitely be no marrying or being given in marriage then by those counted worthy of the new world and having the right to eternal life, just as angels have that right. But even before the gaining of the everlasting new system of things these ones brought back in the resurrection of mankind do not marry, because even prior to the final test they are children of the resurrection. Their being debarred from marrying and being given in marriage does not wait until their names are written in the book of life and they are counted worthy of the everlasting system of things. (Rev. 20:12, 15) By the time they return from the dead through a resurrection paradise will have overspread the earth and the token fulfillment of the procreation mandate will have been effected by the Armageddon survivors and their offspring. (Gen. 9:1; Matt. 24:37; Luke 23:43) That work will have been accomplished by those of the "other sheep" class now living and who survive Armageddon. They are not precluded from marriage and childbirth by the words of Jesus at Luke 20:34-36, since they never die and hence are not children of the resurrection.

    ***

    tschap.20pp.179-180ForWhomWillResurrectionBringBenefits?*** WHYRESURRECTIONHOLDSFORTHNOPROMISEOFMARRIAGE ... But what about those who are brought back from the dead to live on earth? Will they be reunited with former marriage mates? No statement in the Bible indicates that this will be the case. The Scriptures definitely show that death dissolves the marriage. Romans 7:2, 3 reads: "A married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband . . . so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s." Hence, if a person chooses to remarry now, he does not have to worry about the effect this might have on a resurrected mate in the future. If singleness is not for him, he does not have to struggle to maintain it in the hope of being reunited in marriage with his former mate in the resurrection. Surely, then, it was a kindness on God’s part not to require former marriage relationships to be in force at the time of a person’s resurrection, as the Sadducees erroneously thought. While we do not know where on earth or with whom the resurrected ones will live, we can rest assured that whatever arrangement exists will contribute to the happiness of the resurrected ones. God’s gifts, including the resurrection, will wholly satisfy the desires and needs of obedient mankind. His gifts are perfect, flawless. (James 1:17) The generous gifts that we have already received as expressions of his love convince us of that.

    ***

    w876/1p.31QuestionsFromReaders*** Some have felt that Jesus was here referring to the heavenly resurrection, yet there are reasons to believe that his reply was about the earthly resurrection in the coming "system of things." What reasons underlie this view? Those questioning Jesus did not believe in him or know about a heavenly resurrection. They asked about a Jewish family under the Law. In reply Jesus referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, men who hoped for life again on earth. (Genesis 42:38; Job 14:13-15; compare Hebrews 11:19.) Those patriarchs, and millions of others, who are raised on earth and who prove faithful will be "like the angels." Though mortal, they will not die once God has declared them righteous for endless life. Human emotions today might make this a difficult conclusion to accept. But it is to be noted that nowhere does the Bible say that God’s resurrecting the faithful means restoring their marital status. ... So if a Christian finds it hard to accept the conclusion that resurrected ones will not marry, he can be sure that God and Christ are understanding. And he can simply wait to see what occurs.
  • AudeSapere
    AudeSapere

    Hi EverAStudent - Welcome to JWD!!

    You wrote: I asked them about the cost of the magazines and books they have been dropping off, was I going to be billed, or what? ... Is the pioneer paying for this, and will they at some point demand (ask?) for contributions?

    When picking up literature at the Kingdom Hall to take in the field, the pioneer or publisher (regular witness who is also required to go door-to-door) is expected to place the corresponding donation in the liteature contribution box. They are then instructed to ask for a donation from the householder and then to place that money in the donation box as well.

    In my experience (15 years ago), rarely did anyone contribute twice. And probably most of us did not even contribute the full amount at the literature counter knowing that the books and magazines would be sitting in our bookbags for a while.

    While they may 'ask' you for a contribution, no one will demand payment from you.

    -Aude Sapere (meaning: Dare to Know; Dare to Have Wisdom/Understanding; Dare to Think for Yourself)

  • EverAStudent
    EverAStudent

    To all! Thanks for the welcome!

    Much appreciation for the detailed responses! I'll keep lurking to check for addional input and responses.

    Maddie: So I should not consider it unusual that they gave me their little brown recruiting handbook (Reasoning from the Scriptures)?

    A Student (returning to lurking mode)

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    It is a little unusual to give the "Reasoning From the Scriptures" book to people they meet in the ministry. It is intended to help JW's know what to say to prospective recruits. However, I don't believe there is any rule against giving it if someone asks for it. If someone who has been studying with JW's regularly asks for it, they may take it as a sign you are interested in "witnessing" to others and give it to you to help you. Participating in the ministry is required for all "bible studies" before they can get baptized.

    Even if they know you are not intending to witness, there is nothing secret in the book. JW's are encouraged to use many of the introductions and conversation stopper's word for word. They honestly believe they are logical and true arguments, so letting you read them for yourself, as opposed to waiting for you to ask them each individual question, could only serve to further convince you of the "truthfulness" of their doctrines. Nothing to lose, everything to gain from their point of view.

    Cog

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