Two Questions: 1) Hesitancy discussing salvation, 2) Marriage in Paradise?

by EverAStudent 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • EverAStudent

    Cog and Aude: Thank you. That helps give me a peek into their actions. Their publications have helped me bypass some of the discussion points for which they have already prepared and dip into Bible passages they seem not to have considered as heavily. This makes the conversations more meaningful. I suppose at some point they will cut me off as unreachable, but for now...

  • WTWizard

    It really makes it difficult to fit the page on the screen if we do not put breaks in very long words
    (especially when they are run-in words). This also goes for very long series of ********s or
    _______________s or =================s. If these are more than will fit in the width of the screen, it causes it to go way off the screen, making seeing the whole post impossible for everyone
    else that replies on that page.

    Marriage in paradise? I have been told so many times that people that die and are resurrected
    have nothing but endless celibacy to look forward to.

  • OnTheWayOut

    Follow-up question to Onthewayout: In very early meetings with the JWs, I asked them about the cost of the magazines and books they have been dropping off, was I going to be billed, or what? They responded that these were gifts (so far they have given me some useful stuff: Reasonong from the Scriptures, the Kingdom Interlinear, some pamphlets, some Awake!, and Watchtowers, etc.). Is the pioneer paying for this, and will they at some point demand (ask?) for contributions? How does this work? No JW I have met with so far (or over the years) has actually tried to sell me anything. Just curious what the typical promotional activity looks like.

    AudeSapere has the answer already:
    the pioneer or publisher expected to place the corresponding donation in the liteature contribution box. They are then instructed to ask for a donation from the householder and then to place that money in the donation box as well.

    That isn't going so well for WTS (as also pointed out in that comment). They hand the literature out to anyone at no set charge because of a legal matter that came up years back. The U.S. (and other countries to follow) were going to start making religious organizations pay taxes on the "sale" of literature, so WTS converted to the "voluntary donation" method. They had a huge mark-up because their employees work for room-and-board and the sales force (local JW's) work for free. But the limit of the law prohibits them from further suggesting prices or the amount of donations, and JW's alread feel that they are giving their time, so they don't donate much (in the U.S. and some other countries) so the profit margin has gotten thinner and thinner as years go by.

    My advice is to ask for more literature, never offering to donate. When they show you a certain book they get answers from, "Gee, I sure would like that book." The problem is that they will visit more often thinking you are REALLY interested. Wait until they deliver all those books then tell them why you aren't interested. Invite them to the book-burning or tell them you threw them all away.

  • EverAStudent

    To JWfacts: I have been thinking about what you wrote, specifically about all the unbaptized being destroyed at Armageddon. In the JW scheme of things, when does Armageddon happen? In most orthodox Christian circles, Armageddon is thought to be pre-Millennium, during the Great Tribulation. Presumably much of the earth at that time will be unbelieving, which is what the Great Tribulation is all about, the last resort call to the unsaved to repent or be punished.

    As I understand JW dogma, after Armageddon, the Millennium begins and all those who ever died (excpet those who died at Armageddon, Adam and Eve, other apostates?) will be resurrected for a thousand years so as to try and prove their worthiness for everlasting life. How close and I?


    A Student

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    I'm not JW facts but I'll answer any way. That is the same as JW's teach. I am surprised though. I did not realize that other Christian religions taught the same thing. JW's believe they are the only ones with this truth about the great tribulation and Armageddon. So, what did you believe was going to happne to the earth after Armageddon?


  • EverAStudent

    Hi Cog, thanks for confirming.

    Keep in mind that orthodox Christianity permits each person to study the Scriptures independently and come to conclusions on one's own. Conclusions too far off the general mark tend to foster corrective discussions and even debates (which can be as much fun as they are instructive). So when it comes to the end times, there is some disparity among Christians. Please forgive the fact that this version may be a bit different than those held by others.

    However, the typical timeline, as I have studied it, goes like this:

    Rapture (the first resurrection), where all the spirits of the "dead in Christ" who have been waiting in Heaven rejoin their bodies, and the living Christians are snathed up off the planet, they all rest and rejoice in Heaven for a short time

    The Great Tribulation begins (no Christians remain on the planet as they have just all been removed), the Jews come to realize that Christ was the Messiah, many repent, sending 144,000 evangelists into the world, in the heat of all the judgments / plagues unleashed by God they see untold multitudes saved, they are persecuted brutally, many being martyred, Jesus cuts short the Tribulation so that all flesh does not perish, at least, not yet

    Millennium begins, Jesus returns to Earth with the just previously resurrected "dead in Christ" and those snatched away at the Rapture, and imposes His Messianic rule over all the remaining Earth for one thousand years, Israel prospers and all the promises made to her are fulfilled, Satan is imprisoned

    At the end of the Millennium, Satan is released and he gathers an army against Israel, before it strikes, it is destroyed by Jesus

    Jesus then casts Satan into the Lake of Fire, He disposes of the entire universe in flash with fire (even the elements are dissolved), He resurrects the unbelieving dead, shows them their sins (Jesus does not offer to pardon them of their sins like He will do for the believers), the unbelievers confess their guilt on their knees as they confess that Jesus is Lord, the unbelievers are put into the Lake of Fire, followed by Hades and Death which, no longer being needed, are also put into the fire

    Jesus creates a new universe (heavens and earth) and puts new Jerusalem on the new earth, the Father and the Lamb put their throne in the new Jerusalem and together the Father and the Son become the "temple" of the city, and all the believers in Christ worship YHWH there for eternity, for this is heaven

  • GentlyFeral


    the unbelievers confess their guilt on their knees as they confess that Jesus is Lord

    Technically, this is repentance - so the standard end-times theology, at least this version of it, has God destroying repentant sinners. This is why I'm not a Christian, though I have the highest respect for Jesus.

    I only joined the JW's because they were "no-hellers." I left because they were turning me into a judgemental she-prick.


  • EverAStudent

    Hi Gently,

    Thanks for the personal testimony. That is an interesting take you have on "repentance." Many in the orthodox Christian world would probably note that the confession part is only half of genuine repentance.

    Repentance must be driven by sorrow over offending God, and such sorrow that one desires to turn around (away from sin). Sorrow like this only comes from faith (a knowledge, fear, and a love for God). Confessing one's guilt is good, but incomplete. One can confess one's guilt about breaking God's laws, but not feel bad about it, nor even desire to change. Kind of like feeling guilty for cheating on income taxes, but doing the same again next year anyway. This is the mentality of the unbelievers who must bow before Christ, they acknowledge who He is, and that they sinned against Him, but they do not care, and they would do it all over again if they could. Their spirit's have not been regenerated and they just cannot understand the spiritual desire to please God.

    Sorry to hear you have had such struggles with religion. But thanks for your insights.

    A Student

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Hmm, I see that JW's and other Christians diverge at the point of the rapture and in the belief that the heavens and earth will be literally destroyed.

    I don't know why I wanted to know since I'm an atheist now. I have my own similiar "end of the world" scenario though. The sun burns out or a big meteor hits earth and we all die. End of story.


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