Universal Issue of Sovereignty Does NOT Exist....Proof......

by oompa 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • FreeWilly

    I don't know if you're looking for someone to take the flip side of this issue. Good luck here!

    Anyway, If you read the WT Brochures or the sections of the Knowledge book etc, where it introduces this "issue" you will notice scant few scriptures cited in support. The few ones they do cite speak nothing of a universal issue. The truth is this "issue" is nowhere taught in the Bible. Paul uses the whole book of Hebrews to explain parallels betwen the Mosaic law and Christianity, but not even one paragraph in the Bible is devoted to what the Society bills as the most important decision facing mankind.

    Abraham never spoke of this issue.

    Moses never spoke of this issue.

    The prophets never spoke of this issue.

    Jesus never spoke of this issue.

    The Apostles never spoke of this issue.

    Is it reasonable to believe that every important Biblical figure forget to mention it, yet this same (hidden) issue will determine if you are part of the 0.01% who live or the 99.9% who die! How stupid.

  • Chalam

    I agree-anyone that builds a belief on one part of the Bible in isolation is on very dangerous ground.

    You might end up baptising the dead like the Mormons or believing the dead know nothing like the JWs.


  • R.Crusoe

    Everyone who has ever lived for thousands of years are now long forgotten. Their life came and went! If each of us are equally loved by an all loving God, why were millions living so many different beliefs just as today for the whole of their lives from birth to death?

    Simple - because they were born to what they were told - just like you! Your reality tunnel is exactly that and superior to no ones except in your own eyes and those of similar individuals! That is the reality!

    As to the Divine Reality - it seems its within us already. Whatever it is it wants us to know - when you get to find it isn't very much, but it's all we have! It's about being a small part of all life and our view of the universe and just being another drop flowing down the stream or a grain of sand washing in and out with the tide. If you can improve anything do so, if not just keep ticking for it's all you have been given to do!

    God doesn't actually need any one of us and I know it! But if God has loved each and every one of us just like every sparrow that ever flew, I'm sure you'll have some questions for Him just like me - if He ever gives you the chance! Same with Satan by the way - if he exists. Some humans since before Genesis was written have thought significantly and interestingly differently about the spirits of the Cosmos! The Bible is no universal authority !!

  • jwfacts

    It makes no sense whatsoever. If God created all and has power to destroy all, then no one could doubt that he has the ultimate right of say.

    Rom 9:20, 21 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

  • The Oracle
    The Oracle

    It is a very primitive and childish notion to begin with.

    God's right to rule? His Universal Sovereignty was called in to question? Quite a selfish and childish reaction to go to all this trouble and allow millions to be tortured and billions to die horrible deaths to prove a point so your honor and rightfulness to rule could be proved, don't ya think?

    That's what I call a grade A - asshole.

    Imagine if a CEO behaved that way, if someone called in to question his right be CEO. ... what if he did some things to clear his name but in the process thousand of his employees died in unsafe working conditions all to prove a point. What would we call a CEO like that? All together now...

    Give me an A.! ...."A"

    Give me an S!..... "S"

    Give me another S!.... you get the idea.


    The Oracle

  • Leolaia

    Two passages on Christ's supremacy over creation that have no notion of divine sovereignty being challenged:

    "For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).

    "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Colossians 1:16-20; cf. 2:15 on the triumph over and humilation of the evil powers via Jesus' crucifixion).

    In other words, how can every tongue confess that Christ (exalted at the power of God the Father) is Lord if his lordship is being questioned? How can all those in heaven bow before him if his sovereignty is questioned? How can he have supremacy in everything and reconcile all things (including everything in heaven) to himself, if some of the things created in heaven question his sovereignty?

  • oompa
    Leolaia: Two passages on Christ's supremacy over creation that have no notion of divine sovereignty being challenged:

    First just wanted to say how much I love your reasoning on this subject and in finding scriptures that may seem to refute it....Brilliant!

    Oh and BTW...does anyone know who the hey dreamed up this Universal Sovereignty Issue??? or When it was started?...oompa


    God has been doing an extremely bad job running the universe..Thats why the WBT$ had to take over..Things are running much smoother now!..Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW

  • Leolaia

    Well, it was Mr. Rutherford, trial lawyer, who dreamed that doctrine up....naturally, he would conceive theodicy in such terms, as a court case in heaven.

  • oompa

    Inkling: I just thought of a little theory that, if i may say so, may be an improvement on the plan that God actually went with...ahem.

    I call in the "Two Planet Solution". Right from the start, make TWO worlds, identical to start with, and give one to Satan after he "issues his challenge", and a free shuttle between them

    I like your idea better Inkling, and although not exactly part of my studies, there is one part of your idea that fits in. Two separate tests plantes with no outside interference....angels and demons could observe, and whoever wins The Issue has done so fairly.......We are supposed to be doing the same test, but just with one planet involved. The problem is that if there is outside interference with mankind, the test results would be skewed, and could easily be contested by Satan or any other loud mouth angel.

    Satan starts the game by waking up Adam and Ever.......Satan-1.....God-0

    Satan got to to his little sordid test thingy on Job, and God stayed out of it.......Satan-1......God-1

    But talk about a big interference....virtually the whole earth is doing things Satan's way apparently in Noah's day....and God wants a do-over!!! What they hey? Satan can argue that if God has stayed out of it, he may have one the game in just another hundred years or so.

    But to me, the absolute WORST interference that TOTALLY skewed The Issue test was at Babel. Here is the account:

    Genesis 11:1-9) 11 Now all the earth continued to be of one language and of one set of words. 2 And it came about that in their journeying eastward they eventually discovered a valley plain in the land of Shinar, and they took up dwelling there. 3 And they began to say, each one to the other: "Come on! Let us make bricks and bake them with a burning process." So brick served as stone for them, but bitumen served as mortar for them. 4 They now said: "Come on! Let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth." 5 And Jehovah proceeded to go down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men had built. 6 After that Jehovah said: "Look! They are one people and there is one language for them all, and this is what they start to do. Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them. 7 Come now! Let us go down and there confuse their language that they may not listen to one another’s language." 8 Accordingly Jehovah scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth, and they gradually left off building the city. 9 That is why its name was called Babel, because there Jehovah had confused the language of all the earth, and Jehovah had scattered them from there over all the surface of the earth. No where in the account of Babel does it say that had false religious beliefs or horrible conduct....also, no command had been given to man to spread over the earth at a certain speed. As has happened throughout world history, expansion happens with population growth no matter what. The only instruction was to perfect Adam and Eve anyway, " (Genesis 1:28) . . ."Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it," There is absolutely NOTHING with what the people of Babel were doing that would indicate that would not gradually fill the earth. These were people united in thought, nationality, and language have may have NEVER developed evil tendencies since they were all one people...one language. They would have advanced extremely quickly, and it may have been for the good of the people. Satan would have a very strong argument based on Gods on words in vs. 6, "Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them." (this does not seem like a negative comment). Does that sound like they were going to need Gods direction or not? Taken literally, they would have attained what they needed.... without Gods direction!! So just when man is REALLY doing great, God confuses their languages, which is what let to the forming of Nations and WARS! If there is a Universal Sovereignty Issue....any honest angel or demon looking down on this test can see that the end result is basically worthless......................................................................oompa

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