A link to some of Jean Vanier's thoughts about loneliness, individuality, and groups.
http://www.unb.ca/bruns/9900/issue11/entertainment/book2.html
are JWs really worse? (or: is every religion a cult?)
by inkling 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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carla
I suggest you study cults and thought reform. Margaret Thayer Singer and Robert Lifton are the best places to start. It is from Lifton's work that Sirona's (Randy's) post came from. 'Cults in our Midts' by Singer is excellent.
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sass_my_frass
No worse, IMO. But then, I think that Amway and the army are a cult.
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fresia
Inclining says....whats the diff.
Both have a custom-made bible.
Both have a governing body of 12(ish) men who decide doctrine.
Both have a nontraditional but technically Christian theology.
Both isolate group members from critical writings against the group
Both encourage a strong Us vs The world, in-group, One True Religion stance.
Both are aggressive door-to-door evangelicals.I wouldn't say the are arressive as they used to be, and how much witnesses do these other dudes do, and what is the theme of the message.
What about their life style do you conclude they are the same, what about their beliefs and standards?
The structual arrangement does not conclude that they the JW are the same. The laws of the land have to have certain boards and other exceptable structures to any organization for registration.
The importance of the WTS is to preach Gods Kingdom that is its main objective. And sure they imperfect and sure they have made some very stupid chronological predictions and other things that I do very much disagree with. What to do then run off and not do the work of preaching Gods Kingdom, or wait and see judgement by Jehovah for their lack of direction for his sheep.
Just because some have become corrupt doesn't mean that Jehovah has deserted his people. In fact Jesus fortold this evil slave would infiltrate Gods house. We call it organization today, but it is Gods house.
Jesus foretold that the possibility existed that some of the slaves who had been entrusted with the responsibility of feeding and caring for the sheep would become self-important, "full of themselves" as you put it, "lording it over those who are God's inheritance," even to the point of beating them. He would deal with them, hold them accountable, each one according to his dealings, upon his arrival. (1 Peter 5:3)
Luke 12:45-48 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)45 But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming, and starts to beat the male and female slaves, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 that slave's master will come on a day he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master's will and didn't prepare himself or do it will be severely beaten. 48 But the one who did not know and did things deserving of blows will be beaten lightly. Much will be required of everyone who has been given much. And even more will be expected of the one who has been entrusted with more. So yest there is a complete difference.
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carla
Another point about cults vs military or other groups is - when you leave will you have a usable skill? Will you be shunned when your time is up? Were you informed up front of all the costs be it financial, time, emotional, spiritual, and physical costs? Hidden agendas, etc... Here is something from Margaret Singer-------
Aren't the Marines a Cult by Your Definition?
I have had to point out why the United States Marine Corps is not a cult so many times that I carry alist to lectures and court appearances. It cites 19 ways in which the practices of the Marine Corps differ from those found in most modern cults....
Cults clearly differ from such purely authoritarian groups as the military, some types of sects and communes, and centuries-old Roman Catholic and Greek and Russian Orthodox Orders. These groups, though rigid and controlling, lack a double agenda and are not manipulative or leader-centered. The differences become apparent when we examine the intensity and pervasiveness with which mind-manipulating techniques and deceptions are or are not applied.
Jesuit seminaries may isolate the seminarian from the rest of the world for periods of time, but the candidate is not deliberately deceived about the obligations and burdens of the priesthood. In fact, he is warned in advance about what is expected, and what he can and cannot do....
Mainstream religious organizations do not concentrate their search on the lonely and the vulnerable.... Nor do mainstream religions focus recruitment on wealthy believers who are seen as pots of gold for the church, as is the case with those cults who target rich individuals....
Military training and legitimate executive training programs may use the dictates of authority as well as peer pressure to encourage the adoption of new patterns of thought and behavior. They do not seek, however, to accelerate the process by prolonged or intense psychological depletion or by stirring up feelings of dread, guilt, and sinfulness....
And what is wrong with cults is not just that cults are secret societies. In our culture, there are openly recognized, social secret societies, such as the Masons, in which new members know up front that they will gradually learn the shared rituals of the group.... In [cults], there is deliberate deception about what the group is and what some of the rituals might be, and primarily, there is deception about what the ultimate goal will be for a member, what will ultimately be demanded and expected, and what the damages resulting from some of the practices might be. A secret handshake is not equivalent to mind control.
--adapted from Cults in Our Midst: The Hidden Menace in Our Everyday Lives,Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich, Jossey-Bass, 1995. Reprinted with authors' permission.
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Maddie
INKLING - Judge for yourself
Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
? The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
? Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
? Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
? The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
? The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
? The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
? The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
? The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
? The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
? Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
? The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
? The group is preoccupied with making money.
? Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
? Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
? The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
This checklist will be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.
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Maddie
Sorry, don't know what happened there, the list keeps repeating itself - must be an omen !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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inkling
Wow, I feel like I lit a fuse and ran away.
[ink]
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snowbird
In 1995, the Southern Baptist Convention issued an apology to all African-Americans and asked for their forgiveness.
Your memory serves you correctly, Junction Guy.
It would do well for the WT to follow suit and apologize for all their errors.
Sylvia
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Alwayshere
why not just point out individual practises that are disagreed with and drop such hate monikers as cult
BECAUSE A CULT IS A CULT.