I just gave 2 Mormon Elders Hell!

by smellsgood 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    What "creepy religious exercises" are LDS parents "commanded to have with their children"? What on earth are you talking about? There is no such thing in the Mormon religion.

    Your quotes included this one:

    President Gordon B. Hinckley (on the Miracle of Faith):


    As it was then, so it is today. This precious and marvelous gift of faith, this gift from God our Eternal Father, is still the strength of this work and the quiet vibrancy of its message. Faith underlies it all. Faith is the substance of it all. Whether it be going into the mission field, living the Word of Wisdom, paying one’s tithing, it is all the same. It is the faith within us that is evidenced in all we do.


    Our critics cannot understand it. Because they do not understand, they attack. A quiet inquiry, an anxious desire to grasp the principle behind the result, could bring greater understanding and appreciation.

    I was asked at a news conference on one occasion how we get men to leave their vocations, to leave home, and serve the Church.

    I responded that we simply ask them, and we know what their answer will be.

    What a marvelous and wonderful thing it is, this powerful conviction that says the Church is true. It is God’s holy work. He overrules in the things of His kingdom and in the lives of His sons and daughters. This is the reason for the growth of the Church. The strength of this cause and kingdom is not found in its temporal assets, impressive as they may be. It is found in the hearts of its people. That is why it is successful. That is why it is strong and growing. That is why it is able to accomplish the wonderful things that it does. It all comes of the gift of faith, bestowed by the Almighty upon His children who doubt not and fear not, but go forward.

    Can you tell me in what way you find this to be offensive? Actually, you, by your own actions and words, are verifying exactly what he said:

    "Our critics cannot understand it. Because they do not understand, they attack." Isn't this exactly what you are choosing to do?

    Perhaps it would be better if you would stop and consider the next line of his quote:

    "A quiet inquiry, an anxious desire to grasp the principle behind the result, could bring greater understanding and appreciation."

    Is that an offensive line to you, too? Or are you able to recognize how powerful a concept this simple statement is in a time when so many people only seem interested in adding to the havoc already so aboundant in the world.

    You have obviously been very busy with research. Unfortunately, you violated the first rule of valid research. You had a preconceived bias that colored all your findings and your conclusions. As you yourself said, you researched all this to "prove" that Mormons are a cult. No matter what you found, you read it through that bias.

    My quoting your quotes as I did is a prime example of that. Nowhere in the words of that kind and gentle man was ANYTHING that any normal person would take offense to, and yet you did.

    I don't know you. I don't know your story. But I do know that you must be a very sad person to invest so much time in a project such as this one for the purpose you stated. Guess what? Anybody can do the same thing with any religion. Quotes out of context, with your own interpretations interspersed liberally throughout in order to lead the reader's mind to the conclusion you want them to reach. You must be a very sad and bitter person.

    I'm sorry you can't get past whatever has caused you to be so bitter towards 12 million people you have never even met. Surely there must be a better way to accomplish your goals that this.

    SusanHere

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    I didn't 'research' the LDS church the way that you did. When I was 16, I joined it! I know how they taught, I know the level of indoctrination, the things they were expected to read and absorb and parrot. Sure LDS folks think that their kids will get better assoc. with other faithful LDS, but they ENCOURAGE them to have a wide range of friends and associates. Frankly, that is where their best witnessing is done (I'm a proof of it). They have magazines. NO ONE has to subscribe. I never did, nor was I ever encouraged to. They have conferences and write down what was said. No one sells it later as a required piece of literature.

    The LDS church is really more about the social structure than it is about the doctrine. Their weird teachings are kind of on the fringe of what they do, and frankly, their unique beliefs generally make them a nice group of people, IMO. I know what they believe, and I know the extent that certain beliefs are held to be important. Not having ever had my endowments in the temple, I can't speak to anything that happens there, but most of their values are strictly christian. The stranger ideas kind of back up some of their 'big concepts' like, Family is forever. Geneology, missionary work-indians. BUT, as weird as we hold some of those ideas to be, they are really kind of positive. Even their ideas that lead to the years storage of food and all that. It's hard to explain, and I still don't believe in the doctrine, but so far as religions go, it is a hell of a lot nicer than the JWs. The LDS may prefer that you hold all their values and don't go too far into questioning, but they don't have any ax held over your little LDS head if you dare question.

    At this point, I think religion in general is bunk. I just think that the LDS church is a particular brand of bunk.

    I left the church. I came home and was given a baby shower by my friends in my old ward. I was welcomed at a friends funeral. I was was not turned away from publically or privately. I was loved, like I had been when I joined. Did they want me back? I don't know. I wasn't a flirty fish for them or anything:) But they did not look at me crosswise, and I can't say that for the JWs. The way they treat 'weak' LDS folks vs. the JW way. VERY different. The way they treat women-(in spite of the reputation as being very male dominated) VERY different. Women are really more respected in that church than in about any church I have been in. The LDS fundies notwithstanding, the PRACTICE of the church is that women teach, they speak in church,and pray in church, they have conferences and are considered to have an important role in the spiritual lives of the church and families and their marriage. Priesthood-yeah, they are supposed to do the headship thing. In practice, they have a very equal role in the church that would surprise those who have just 'studied' Mormons.

    I still don't want to be one, but I kind of miss parts of it that are not in any other church that were GOOD things.

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    Wow, JWdaughter -- thank you for your comments. You put into words what I usually can't do nearly so well.

    SusanHere

  • smellsgood
    smellsgood

    Thanks for telling me about your experiences, JWDaughter, I totally agree with this:

    "It's hard to explain, and I still don't believe in the doctrine, but so far as religions go, it is a hell of a lot nicer than the JWs."

    I think WT is one of the worst. I did grow up around alot of Mormons, and I know the Mags aren't compulsory. I just think it's fascinating how they WRITE similar things at the very least ;)

    peace out!

  • SusanHere
    SusanHere

    ALL Christian churches (and many other churches, too) tend to have similar writings.

    Things like:

    using faith to help people through life,

    seeking good things while avoiding the bad,

    using good judgement and discernment,

    being kind to others,

    having strong and loving families,

    parents teaching their children good values so they can have good lives...

    little things like that.

    For me and my family, those things have high value. This is America. Everyone can freely choose how much value they place on religion for themselves and their families, and also which one they want to follow, if any.

    They can even choose to make ignorant and insensitive remarks about other people's religions. I don't recommend doing so but in this country people have that right.

    SusanHere

  • smellsgood
    smellsgood

    Susan here

    "You have obviously been very busy with research. Unfortunately, you violated the first rule of valid research. You had a preconceived bias that colored all your findings and your conclusions. As you yourself said, you researched all this to "prove" that Mormons are a cult."

    Nope. Didn't say that. Was researching it to talk to JW's actually, clearly YOU are jumping to conclusion without having read properly what I said. I'm sorry it makes you angry that people question the validity of a religion that states Jesus came to America. One thing I actually was wondering, does the Mormon church state it was before or AFTER his resurrection? I admit freely I am ignorant on this point.

    "No matter what you found, you read it through that bias."

    Absolutely not. I was not biased when I researched JW's for the first time. It was the history, the dishonesty, the deciet that I found on record for over One hundred years that led me to the conclusions that it is a cult. Mormonism is much more see through in doctrine, IMO, but much less severe in other ways. BTW, what reason do YOU have for Joseph Smith saying, writing, that black people are the spawn of the devil?

    "My quoting your quotes as I did is a prime example of that. Nowhere in the words of that kind and gentle man was ANYTHING that any normal person would take offense to, and yet you did."
    Actually, I've researched cults of every flavor going on six years, the language of it, the restrictions that they place upon a person, etc. are very evident to my trained eye.

    "I don't know you. I don't know your story. But I do know that you must be a very sad person to invest so much time in a project such as this one for the purpose you stated."

    Trying to get Witnesses out of a cult that sees thousands of people dying to their their evil and malicious blood doctrine, a cult where families are torn apart, where sons and daughters are shunned because they found the truth about the truth. Yes, my motivations are entirely dishonorable.

    "Guess what? Anybody can do the same thing with any religion. Quotes out of context,"

    Guess what? That's exactly what a JW always says about their religion.

    " with your own interpretations interspersed liberally throughout in order to lead the reader's mind to the conclusion you want them to reach."

    Actually, the people on this board have experience, and being ex-JW's, know the WT control mechanisms, what they say about the WT being the only means of salvation, the WT saying stay away from the internet, the WT saying apostates are malicious axe grinders, etc. BTW, those quotes were hardly out of context. Prove it. I was very careful to put alot of surrounding text to what I highlighted. I also did this on my Mormon quotes awhile back, I quoted the ENTIRE articles. I suppose that's the default position of anybody who quotes any cults literature, it was taken out of context.

    "You must be a very sad and bitter person."

    Ooooh, ad hominem. Actually, sadly, you can't read tone online. I'm sorry to challenge what you hold dear, but there's no need to hit below the knees.

    "I'm sorry you can't get past whatever has caused you to be so bitter towards 12 million people you have never even met."

    Actually, I'm hardly bitter at all. You are superimposing your own preconceived ideas about anyone who challenges Mormonism onto me. You can't read tone, like I said. I was researching the Mormon ideas of things I know mirror the WT. And the Unification Church, and the WWCOG, and the Iglesia Ni Cristo, and the Church of God in Christ, and certain Mennonite cults. The religions that say salvation comes through their organization, or church. They're all very similar.

    It should cheer you up that I hardly think Mormonism is as dangerous as the WT, I think it is much less subtle and crafty, partly because it is so fantastical. I grew up surrounded by Mormons, my best friend was a Mormon, and until I was preparing to talk with the Witnesses who finally stopped by, I hadn't been thinking much about Mormonism at all.

    btw, I separate the person from the religion. I see people first, I understand that they are people who have been taken in and their circuits commandeered by a deranged cult such as the WatchTower. I feel love only for the people, and I guess I am bitter at the cult. I see the destruction in it's path. I can no more hate 12 million Mormons than I can 1 billion Muslims. I heart people, unless they hurt others.

    So, I guess I am sad and bitter to want to challenge the WT which ruins families and takes lives. So sorry about that.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Thanks for pointing out the similarities betweent the two groups, smellsgood. Your work is appreciated.

  • smellsgood
    smellsgood

    Ahhh, thank you Nvr! You do know I hope though, that my comments are colored by bias and hatred, do you not?

    I wasn't expecting Mormons to show up at ALL! I was hoping to mirror some of the stuff from the "What does the Bible really teach?"

    Alas, the Witness is a customer at the stand I work at, and I have no way of knowing how many witnesses frequent the place, how much business she would lose if I went into anti-cult mode. It seems the first Witnesses I've had a chance to speak to in person are the people I feel I can't say anything to now :(

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    I did not know much about Mormons until a couple of my friends started attending the dances and became Mormons because wanting to marry. Later because of the JDUB I did research in the Mormons. As far as I am concerned, they are the worse christain sect!

    The last time I talked to a couple of Mormons boys, I told them that their religion is completely based on lies and not the bible. The Mormon book you can not follow it with the Bible! and twisting the scriptrue about baptizing the dead meaning to baptize the dead! NOT! It was a question they need to read above the scripture! They are really brain washed, Why would we need to baptize the dead? OH well let the dead baptize the dead! Total insult to the Bible!

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    [You do know I hope though, that my comments are colored by bias and hatred, do you not? ] Of course I do. It's obvious! LOL! :)

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