Well I finished earlier than I thought I would.
Merry,
If I understood you correctly, I would agree that we can remove certain concepts of god from the discussion according to whether the actual teachings about them would place them within a finite universe or outside it. As such, Allah would not be excluded from the discussion because you were mistaken about the Qur'an speaking of him as having blood. I hope you didn't miss the remarks I posted also on page 3 about the nature of God in Islamic thought.
Thanks for clearing up the mistake about Allah's blood. Muslims believe life came from a clot of blood. This has been disproven too. I'm not sure what Muslims think of evolution, but that's a fact. Also, I have not seen any flying horses or evidence of flying horses. I can see that many Muslims are making Allah more a deist god now. I still think the koran holds them back somewhat. The book itself was assembled from writings found all over the place. Men decided which parts would make it in and which would be omitted.
I am not a scientist but as far as my powers of observation and reason extend, I would say that it is clear to me that our universe did have a beginning and because it had a beginning it cannot be infinite if infinity means having neither beginning nor end. And if there was a time when it did not exist, it could not bring itself into existence, right? Same with the sun.
Yes, OUR universe had a beginning. THE universe may have always existed.
Whatever the dance between matter and energy, there is still a finite amount, isn't there? Things still have limits and can be measured. And, though positive and negative numbers can go on infinitely, that which they number cannot and, as far as I know, that is their only purpose. Numbers cannot exist apart from the numbered and the numberer, can they? I don't know. I suck at math.
Well consider the atom bomb. From a very small reaction, we can get a gigantic result. We get more than what we started out with. Things can reproduce, make copies of themselves (this happens with cells all the time). We have more humans on the earth now than in the past. 1 million humans may seem a finite amount, but we now have over 6 billion humans.
Well I suck at math too, but time is relative. We just happen to be moving forwards through it. A week ago may no longer exist, but we know it did at one time. A year ago also existed, even though it has passed from our perspective. There doesn't have to be a start, because no matter how far back you go you could always say 'and a week before that'.
I am not sure why you are bringing other theoretical universes into this discussion. Is it because you ran out of room for argument in this one, having agreed that it did have a beginning?
It's a common misconception to think that this universe is THE universe. THIS universe started 13-15 billion years ago. What came before that could still be the universe, just not ours.
But if all you can offer is the idea of an infinity of universes giving rise one to the next because none of them can be infinite in themselves...well, I just don't find that born out rationally by what we have to go on in this one, while I do find the explanation I offered to be rational. Why do you find the explanation I posit to be less believable than this one? Or is it simply less appealing?
Our universe may indeed by infinite. Some think our universe will be destroyed at the 'big crunch', others think it could tear itself apart when it expands too much, but we don't know yet. Another theory I have heard recently is that black holes hold the answer. We can't see into them or detect what's on the other side- so could black holes be the start of other universes, while ours still exists? We don't know.
I think the idea of a god is less believable because that too would have to be explained. What made god? If nothing had to make god because he is eternal, why can't the universe be eternal? We know the universe exists, we see it all around us. Nobody has seen god. Adding a god only complicates things.
When you thought Allah was described as having blood, you said that excluded him from our discussion. So why would you not exclude a god that is described as ejaculating? Or were you accepting the latter as a metaphor? Or were you simply being facetious?
The point wasn't to say Allah can't have blood, but that life on Earth did not come from any blood.
The idea of a god ejaculating our universe into existence is ridiculous, but at least ejaculation exists. Flying horses do not. (And seriously, Atum is a god people really used to worship! I didn't make that up!)