The Satan argument.

Anti-Christ

LtCmd.Lore got me thinking ( we all know how bad that is) In the JW they would often use the Satan argument when someone would put doubts in our minds with some fact we did not know or something else. Now can this argument be used in any religion that believes in a supernatural being that could control this world and put doubts in our minds and our hearts? Does this set you up for being a victim of mind control( by the religion, not by Satan)? How would you know that you are receiving truthful information if you believe a supernatural being is out to get you with lies? If you start having doubts about your beliefs, how can you be sure you are not being manipulated by Satan?

Gopher

Political, national or religious group "X" may say you must believe and affirm "A" is true, or else you're influenced by the "enemy", be that a Devil, another country or another political group.

If you say "A" isn't necessarily so, but "B" or "C" could be true, the group may use tyranny of authority to say -- you'd better believe and affirm our stated position, otherwise you're thinking like the "enemy".

Anti-Christ

Gopher, that is pretty much what I am saying but I'm talking about using a supernatural being to scare people in to not having doubts. When it comes to political or national groups, it's about control of information and a question of opinion, not fear of a powerful invisible creature. I think the impact on the mind is different.

Gopher

Yes there is a difference between a visible but distant enemy, and an unseen and possibly mythical one.

The religious group(s) in question can pretty much make their favorite God and their favorite supernatural enemy say anything they want them to say. They use a series of straw-man arguments, which lead to manipulation and deception.

If you can frame the argument your way, you can dominate a debate.

Anti-Christ

The religious group(s) in question can pretty much make their favorite God and their favorite supernatural enemy say anything they want them to say. They use a series of straw-man arguments, which lead to manipulation and deception.
If you can frame the argument your way, you can dominate a debate.

Exactly my point.

Anti-Christ

I was expecting more religious people to respond, oh well I guess I must be patient.

OnTheWayOut

Anti-christ, we must continue to educate ourselves and do our best.
We can never be 100% sure that somebody isn't manipulating all the data, so
we must just do what we feel is morally right toward others and stop
condemning them to die at Jehovah's hand for not seeing things the way we do.

Man doesn't need a "Satan" to manipulate data and deceive other men. We do
that to each other so well. We have so many laws and so many lawyers, so
many news outlets, yet such little accuracy.

Just do your best and look for the good in others instead of the evil, but even then,
be cautious.

OnTheWayOut

Had you ever seen the Twilight Zone or Outer Limits where a guy noticed it was raining outside of one
window, but sunny when he opened the front door?
He determined that the entire world around him was just fake. He was apparently god-like in some way,
and others were constantly presenting a fake world around him to keep him distracted.

How do you know that everything isn't a dream or an illusion? Maybe some computer like the Matrix is
creating our reality. Maybe we are just the dream of somebody else, and have no actual existence.

While your point is not wasted on me, I get it, I say to just keep examining everything for yourself. If
Satan keeps focusing on you to keep you from the real truth, then enjoy yourself because life was set up
unfairly and you can't win. Unless you keep examining everything and break free, destroying his hold.

LtCmd.Lore

Now can this argument be used in any religion that believes in a supernatural being that could control this world and put doubts in our minds and our hearts? Does this set you up for being a victim of mind control( by the religion, not by Satan)?

Yes, I think so... Suppose you are part of a religion that believes that the Earth is flat and created 6000 years ago.

You see the shadow of the Earth on the moon. You are told that this is the reason Satan invented the 'Round Earth Lie' but it is in fact just the disk shaped moon rotating.

You see the pictures from the moon and satellites and you are told they are fake.

You are told that the multi-million year old fossils are planted by Satan as tricks.

You wonder how we can see light from stars that would take millions of years to reach us. You are told that the light was created already on the way to earth.

There is no evidence that cannot be explained away by people who believe in a supernatural entity.

I think, in a situation like that, it would be best NOT to come up with new information that indicates that the person is wrong. It would be better to show why the already existing information is not good enough to substantiate the belief. It makes the circular reasoning a lot more obvious and easier to deal with.

Complicate the situation as little as possible... because honestly, a person like that doesn't WANT to learn anything difficult.

Lore - W.W.S.D?

Anti-Christ

I agree with most of what you said but the point I'm trying to make is that religion needs a Satan

Man doesn't need a "Satan" to manipulate data and deceive other men.

I think it is easier to manipulate somebody when that person is lead to believe he can not even trust his own mind and becomes afraid to question the authority of his religious book. I know humans don't need a Satan to manipulate information but religions need a Satan to manipulate the mind, so in a way some religious leaders become "Satan".

The Satan argument.

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