WHAT do YOU know about LUCIFER... and His teachings?

by LtCmd.Lore 99 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore
    Again, the fact that Jesus is alive now addresses how Satan was tricked since it was his intent to murder all of mankind,

    What makes you think that was his intent?

    which he accomplished

    ... Mankind is alive and well. If you meen that we are all mortal because of him, I thought you said god did that: "Death is the natural process for men and angels since they were not created immortal, not even Jesus Christ."

    The "war in heaven" wasn't with weapons but with words like in a trial. Satan was put on trial to hear his case.

    Except Yahweh was the Judge, Jury, Prosecutor, and Executioner.... doesn't sound like a fair trail to me. Do you honestly think Yahweh would rule in favor of his enemy? The only thing proven in that kangaroo-court is that Yahweh is dishonest.

    If Satan truly had dignity and stood up for his cause, he would have made a grand gesture of commiting suicide or allowing God to kill him.

    (Allowing God to kill him? )

    Why would he do that? Did Martin Luther King commit suicide when he realised the injustice against black people? No. So why would Satan commit suicide when he noticed the injustice of Yahweh against humans and his subjects?

    Humans neaded a savior from Yahweh. Who could do that if Satan killed himself?

    (Calling him Satan instead of Lucifer now, thanks for the info IP-SEC and Rosalee.)

    And who did Satan kill?

    Satan LIED. He told Eve she would not die and said God was lying about that.

    Here's what God said: (Genesis 2:17) 17 "But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

    They didn't die that day. They died several hundred years later.

    Here's what Satan said: (Genesis 3:3-5) . . .God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

    And here's what happened: (Genesis 3:7) 7 Then the eyes of both of them became opened and they began to realize that they were naked. . . .

    (Genesis 3:22) 22 And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad,. . .

    So Satan was right! But did they die? Yep, but not because of the fruit. And definately not the same day.

    Satan knew the fruit wouldn't kill them, and he knew that it would give them knowledge.

    But Yahweh arranged things to make Satan apear to be a liar: (Genesis 3:22) . . .and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—”

    So Yahweh deprived them of something they needed to survive. A form of starvation you could say. They neaded that special fruit, and Yahweh withheld it from them. God killed Adam and Eve. Satan did not, and Satan told the truth. But Yahweh murdered Adam and Eve.

    You said they were already created mortal, so the fruit had nothing to do with it: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/141834/1.ashx (Thanks Return Visitor.)

    This is about God and Satan and their issues, so I'm right on point here. It's SATAN BASHING TIME! So I'm here.

    Remember this when someone posts a pro-bible thread and the atheists show up to debunk it.

    You call it "nonsense" if you want, but God can define a "day" in any way he wishes.

    Yahweh's a moron, Satan was right.

    You want to claim God was lying because Adam and Eve didn't die in a literal 24-hour day? Fine. God knows what he meant.

    Yahweh's a liar (And poor communicator.) Satan was right.

    You want to jump into the lake of fire voluntarily? Be my guest.

    Yahweh's a tyrant, Satan was right.

    If a person is sad and wants to end their life because things are not working out for them, we're disappointed in that decision and may feel empathy for them. But not if before they kill themselves they go on a shooting rampage and kill everybody in their apartment building, including young children. That can never be justified for any cause.

    Good, then justify this: (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart. 7 So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, from man to domestic animal, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, because I do regret that I have made them.”

    If Yahweh is sad and wants to end his life because things are not working out for him... fine. But if he's going to wipe out an entire world's population of humans, that can never be justified for any cause.

    But who did Satan kill?

    Lore - W.W.S.D?

  • White Dove
    White Dove

    I didn't know that Lucifer (beautiful name, by the way) was in the NWT. If it isn't, that would explain why I never knew about the name until Battlestar Galactica came on TV in the "70's.

  • eclipse
    eclipse

    Lore, that was a most beautifully perfect argument.

    Sorry, JC, you lose that argument. Satan did not kill anyone without god's consent.

    Satan did not lie.

    God did.

    .

  • dark angle
    dark angle

    @greendawn, I thought God has a free giving spirit, that he expects nothing in return, giving for the sake of giving not wanting to get a favor back, & that he abides with the notion that he has more joy in giving than in receiving!!!

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Except Yahweh was the Judge, Jury, Prosecutor, and Executioner.... doesn't sound like a fair trail to me. Do you honestly think Yahweh would rule in favor of his enemy? The only thing proven in that kangaroo-court is that Yahweh is dishonest.

    No, in fact, that's not how it was. This was an argument before his peers. If anything, the decision was by vote and majority consensus.

    God stayed away from that process of the judging just as he will do on Judgment Day. He sets some basic guidelines, but the judging will be done by others. In fact, the judging will be a lot by COMPARISON. That's the purpose of bringing everybody back and comparing notes. That's why those at Sodom and Gomorrah will be compared with those in Jesus' day who rejected him. We can anticipate the basics, that is that the Jews had the advantage of knowing God's word more directly and understanding who the Christ was, whereas those in Sodom didn't know this. The inference is that is some in Sodom had the advantage of the Jews of Jesus' day they would have embraced the messiah instead of rejecting him. Thus it is said that some from Sodom would fair better on Judgment Day than would those who rejected Jesus, knowing what they were doing. It wasn't ignorance or peer pressure or any of those things. So 1,440,000 righteous judges, many of whom would have gone through some of the experiences of everyone being judged would decide. If someone is a drug addict, then a former drug addict might be chosen as his judge, since obviously he would be more understanding, etc.

    In the case of Satan's trial, where some of his issues might have gone other way, such as the greater temptations of being beautiful* has some merit, there was absolutely no excuse or justification for inducing mankind to sin and thus incur death, and since Adam potentially was father to billions, that is seen as essentially killing those billions of people. WHAT EXCUSE? You don't decide to take someone else's life away because you're personally having a bad hair day! So he was condemned on that single thing absolutely. That's what actually happened, that's what condemned him. So Jehovah, while agreeing with that verdict, of course, wasn't sitting there deciding to judge Satan in this case.

    So what YOU have to do now to empathize with Satan, is to present a logical and sane reason why it was appropriate for Satan to include mankind in his protest by lying to them and telling them "they would not die." And in so doing, knowing he could potentially kill billions of future generations in one fell swoop. The Bible calls Satan a "manslayer from the beginning", meaning he hated man from the time he was created.

    Same with Cain and Able. You have to give a reason why Cain's actions in killing his brother out of his own jealousy was honorably justified and he should get a medal for doing so.

    You know, the Germans had very good reasons for killing all those people in death camps too. They needed "lebensraum" ('living space") for the Master Race.

    Satan didn't like competition of mankind whom he considered inferior to angels and decided to get rid of that competition by killing them off. Well, that was just found to be "unacceptable" and assured the death penalty. There were shouts to have Satan put to death, even some who would die themselves rather than have this travesty continue, so Satan and his followers were promptly kicked out of heaven after that.

    So ultimately, that's the only real issue. It's as if any other argument could go either way or had some merit, but there was no merit to include others with his own misery. The dignified thing would have been to stand his ground and on his principles and died with dignity, instead the true Satan was shown forth, that he was a callous evil and corrupted individual so robbed of any love or compassion that he found equisite joy in murdering mankind. Of course, Satan fell into that trap that proved he was a murderous biache, but had had a backup plan! Seems like there was a way to save all those Satan had murdered so in the end the only ones who actually die are basically those who would have chosen death or been killed by Jehovah anyway, not qualifying to eat from the tree of life. But all that will be worked out on JUDGMENT DAY.

    Note on being beautiful: Satan was exquisitely beautiful. Beautiful people do have a different life than say someone not so beautiful. It's like being rich. They are treated with deference. Fact is, beautiful women or people do have a different life, sometimes that improves it and sometimes not. But in the case of a justification, I could see a loose argument that there is more temptation involved if you're beautiful. Take a gay situation for example. You have two young men who are gay, trying to remain celibate but the pressure is just too much. So both give up and go to a gay bar. One of them is handsome and beautiful, so lots of men come by and buy him a drink and ask him for a dance, eventually asking him to go home with them. The man asking him is rich with a nice car, seems sincere and kindly and even wants a relationship. How can he resist?

    The over guy though, is crippled. Not much, but a noticeable limp and he has to use a cane to get around. Plus he's not really that attractive and he's a bit overweight. A nice person for sure, great sense of humor and everything, but simply not someone you'd normally want to have sex with. But he has the same desire as the beautiful guy. He had given up his resolve the same way. But, of course, there was little temptation to act on once he got to the bar. As a result, he went home with his virginity intact. The difference totally being based upon personal beauty. So it could be argued that the temperations are greater for someone beautiful than for someone not so beautiful.

    Of course, sometimes this can backfire. Many times extremely beautiful girls end up getting abused, often by their fathers who can't resist such beauty. So I feel sorry for beautiful women sometimes because they do have a different kind of life to deal with. Now some take to it and relish in it, while others sometimes feel isolated because they know the average man can't see past her beauty. Point being, though, someone who is more ordinary wouldn't have those temptations. A beautiful woman might have a rich man who is worldly wanting to marry her and give her the dream life she has always wished for. She has to make that hard choice to say no if she wants to stay in the congregation. Another girl not so beautiful doesn't have to make that hard choice because no one is offering.

    So Satan thinks, somewhere down the road, that GOD is responsible for the envitable corruption because he made Satan so beautiful. God says that is not his intent but Satan created himself. But whose to judge? Obviously I'll side with God, but others might think Satan has some basis for the misuse or abuse of his personal beauty. But that was not the issue upon which Satan ended up getting condemned to death. That's because there is no argument that personal beauty had anything to do with becoming a murderer of mankind. So there's just no excuse.

    Even so, think about the time and trouble for splitting hairs on all these issues? Satan may be a clear-cut case for execution, but what about the other angels who want to rebel against God? God made them FREE MORAL AGENTS, right? Does that mean everybody who doesn't agree with God would die? Is that really free moral agency? It's a big mess. But there is an easy solution to that big mess. Answer? Just KILL EVERYBODY. Put everybody to death. Make everybody "pass through the fire". That way, there is no need for argument.

    God made the angels mortal, even though free moral agents, so he set a limit on their lifespan, but did so across the board, that is, regardless of the moral choices made, everybody would die at one point in their lives, that included Jesus Christ himself. But what that effected is no need for debate on all this split-hair issues regarding whether God was being judgmental or not. Then after everybody's death, God could choose, if he wanted, to rise up and resurrect any of those who had died back to life. Only, for some reason, he would never quite get around to those complainers. But that works out, because they wouldn't have been happy anyway, right? RIGHT!

    So ultimately, God doesn't really care about what those wicked angels or those who hate him have to say and their opinions about him, because it's only temporary. They will die of "old age" and that will be the end of them and their opinions. Period.

    And in fact, that is kind of the atmosphere that was in Heaven between Jehovah and Satan when he was still allowed up there. God basically has said, "Okay, fine, whatever. I'm not going to get involved in a tit for that. I've decided that I'm going to terminate all angel life up in heaven because I'm not happy and this isn't working out for me. This isn't what I had planned. I'll do this after the millennium. In the meantime, do your thing Satan, whatever..." So God let's Satan make challenges to him and takes him up on some bets, like he did with Job and Satan's claim that he was only worshipping him because of the wealth God gave him, etc. They are adversaries but they are like in competition to see who will rebel against God and who will remain faithful. God is allowing this competition during a prescribed time, but by the end of the 7th Creative Day, the Satanic nightmare will be over and he will be no more. The only people or angels who will be alive at the beginning of the 8th Creative Day will be those who actually like and love this God, YHWH. Those who find fault with him, will not be forced to worship him; they will be dead.

    "Lucifer" will become synonymous with "Insignificance"...

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Good, then justify this: (Genesis 6:6-7) 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart. 7 So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, from man to domestic animal, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, because I do regret that I have made them.”

    If Yahweh is sad and wants to end his life because things are not working out for him... fine. But if he's going to wipe out an entire world's population of humans, that can never be justified for any cause.

    I respect this reasoning and it certainly has fooled some of the other readers here, apparently (ROFL!), but it's not that easy. And you would do the same thing.

    Imagine a nursery school of young children and ouside are these vampire zombies desperate for blood. They have killed all the townspeople and they are about to eat the last children on the planet and turn them into zombies too. But you have a means of stopping them. They are killed by a special light that is emitted from a flaregun you have. Thus in one fell swoop you could destroy the zombies and save the children. But wait? Those poor murdering bloodsucking zombies! Some of them actually are quite cute and some of them even sit down to eat their victims instead of just killing and eating on the spot. As a result, your compassion for these zombies does not allow you to kill them, instead you run down and open the gate to the nursery and push the children out to their death. After all, what are a few children compared to thousands of zombie lives? That would have been the more honorable thing to do.

    Instead, though, someone like me foiled that plan. I saw what you were going to do and I understood your compassion for the zombies. So I told you, "Go ahead, open the gate. I'll wait here." While you were on your way I grabbed the flare gun and shot it off, killing all the zombies. You turn around in horror and I say, "Oh no! It accidentally went off!!! OMG!! We'll have to take care of the children now. Shuckins!"

    JC

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore
    No, in fact, that's not how it was. This was an argument before his peers. If anything, the decision was by vote and majority consensus.

    Here are a bunch of scriptures that say Yahweh acts as the judge:

    (Isaiah 33:22) (Hebrews 12:23) (Psalm 19:9) (Psalm 9:4)

    And here are a bunch that show that he would never allow anyone to judge him:

    (Deuteronomy 6:16) (Isaiah 7:12) (Daniel 4:35)

    Where is your evidence for your assertion that these are all wrong?

    The fact that you realize it would be unjust for God to Judge himself proves that you agree with Satans thinking...

    So what YOU have to do now to empathize with Satan, is to present a logical and sane reason why it was appropriate for Satan to include mankind in his protest by lying to them and telling them "they would not die."

    He did not lie. As I already demonstrated. The only liar in that case was Yahweh.

    And in so doing, knowing he could potentially kill billions of future generations in one fell swoop.

    But you said that they were created mortal and would die anyway. Remember? I already said that.

    The Bible calls Satan a "manslayer from the beginning", meaning he hated man from the time he was created.

    The Bible, the book written by worshipers of Yahweh. It's full of lies. This is one of them.

    Do you think Yahweh would admit he was wrong? I already said that.

    Same with Cain and Able. You have to give a reason why Cain's actions in killing his brother out of his own jealousy was honorably justified and he should get a medal for doing so.

    Why would I have to do that? But if acctually want more info on my opinion on the Cain and Able thing, check out this link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/141975/1.ashx (But please direct any comments on that to that page... this is not in any way relavent to this topic... Satan wasn't even involved.)

    You know, the Germans had very good reasons for killing all those people in death camps too. They needed "lebensraum" ('living space") for the Master Race.

    You keep forgetting that Yahweh is the one who killed everyone. Satan didn't kill anybody. I already said that. This is also not relavent.

    Satan didn't like competition of mankind whom he considered inferior to angels and decided to get rid of that competition by killing them off.

    What makes you think he considered humans inferior to angels? And he didn't kill anybody. I already demonstrated that.

    You say that Satan killed EVERYONE, and yet don't explain how? Especially since we're all still alive.

    But I can site numerous examples where Yahweh killed MILLIONS of people. In fact I did.


    I'm stopping there because I just realized that you haven't read any of my posts... In fact, I don't think you even read the FIRST post. Do you even know what this thread is about?

    I already answered all the relevant assertions you made. What are the most important things you want answered? Keep it shorter and more to the point please.

    Lore - W.W.S.D?

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    I'm stopping there because I just realized that you haven't read any of my posts... In fact, I don't think you even read the FIRST post. Do you even know what this thread is about?

    There will never be a resolution of this issue for you because you impose your own interpertation upon my interpretation. It was over when you decided for yourself that God lied when he said Adam would die that very "day" inserting your own interpretation for that day being a 24-hour one, instead of a broader allegorical concept reached by many others who read this. Therefore, you are not arguing with me, but with yourself.

    The Bible specifically says in one place that a 1000 year with God is as one day. So since "interpretation belongs to God" it is not up to you decide that in Genesis God meant a 24-hour day and just wasn't able to fulfll that, or if the concept of "death" or dying wasn't in a special sense. Even today we sometimes call those with impending death the "walking dead" because they are considered to be dead before the actual fact.

    But in fact, if someone is not capable of understanding those concepts then they might deny those concepts to those who can and, therefore, even though explanations were provided they are rejected based upon your narrower view of things. To that I grant to you.

    But this is precisely my other point. People can pretend to be dumb and blind and not see anything and stand and stomp on the bleachers to prevent other people from discussing anything or coming to any conclusion. The potential for that was always there. By limiting the lifespan of the angels, it evoked silence. That is, it was not necessary to come to a conclusion on the matter. God entered a "no contest" position and is just now waiting for Satan's time to end. Further, God cannot be judged if he puts everyone to death, including Christ. If he puts everyone to death, then he's not judging anyone, at least not that that level.

    It's the resurrection that counts and where the judgment comes in. Who he brings back after death. If he chooses not to bring by Satan, then that's up to him and he can use any flimsy excuse he wants to. Bottom line, God has the right to decide the lifespan of a flower, or an angel.

    I'm sure Satan and all the demon angels resent God's ultimate power over life and death. But that's the message they requested from him and he is more than happy to provide it. If they want to debate legal rights, then God wins, since he has a legal right to decide how long the life he creates is to exist.

    You say God kills millions of people. But what if God brings back those millions and lets them live out their normal life through old age and then they die of "natural causes"? What kind of a God would he be then? What is out of the millions he killed at one point they are found acceptable for eternal life later? In that case, their death was only temporary, so it didn't matter anyway. Bottom line, everyone woudl die of either natural causes or unnatural causes anyway. For those thinking God deprived them of something by cutting their life short, he's likely prepared to make it up.

    For instance, someone maybe around 45 and they die at Armageddon. They were deprived of say 40 years of life if they would have lived to be 85. So if on Judgment Day God brings them back and they are still deemed to be too wicked for eternal life, he could let them live out those last 35 years, which was all they were expecting anyway if they were fortunate enough not to get cancer or hit by a bus or something before they reached old age. That is, if Armageddon hadn't interrupted their life, then what would they expect? To live to be 80 or 90 at the most, then die and that's it.

    So we're going to try to let most of the wicked live out their 80 years so they can't complain about anything then put them to death, that way God has not taken anything from them that they normally expected from a normal life. So sure, maybe God did murder a lot of people, but he reversed that by restoring their life and under better conditions at that.

    Frankly, it was just easier for the angels in heaven, the good ones, along with Jesus, just to agree to allow themselves to die once in order to get rid of the riff raff in heaven. God then could bring back his faithful angels to life without questions or legal issues. That's is privilege and right. God's opposers could accuse him of anything they wanted, call him all kinds of names. Fine. But it wouldn't be forever. When that fateful day comes when they are thrown into the lake of fire, Lucifer along with them, their temporary life will seem like a flash and all too short. They will regret the decision they made and be in torment day and night throughout eternity.

    People like me will be delighted to live on in a wonderful universe with a wonderful god having fun and having sex with all the other angels. It's going to be FUN!

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hi. I am interested to know what you know about Lucifer/Satan and what you really think of His teachings.

    You said I didn't address this. In a nutshell, I think Satan's teachings are in protest to the Creator and he's resentful of this God. He blames God for creating him and his turning evil. Satan's teachings suggest that he believes that no one can genuinely love God nor would give up their life out of that love to worship him. But, of course, he is dead wrong.

    Thanks for posting this interesting thread. Sorry if I strayed from the theme too much, but sometimes you have to to address the subtleties of this issue.

    Interesting, though, some who comment likely don't believe Satan is more than a myth, but we're treating this as if we've accepted he's a real angel and opposed to God.

    JC

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    I think that he was not satan but a King so your Bible is really a kings bible. Maybe they should have called it Satans Bible.

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