UNDENIABLE LOGIC. Some cherish it while others dismiss it. Which are you? (page 7)

Eliveleth

Now that logic has been discussed and we have a handle on it--can anyone show me the logic of life without a creator. I still need the logic of how life began. I hear about "small changes" but lets get back to how did it start...Can someone please help me logically understand how everything we know came from nothing? I am a logical person. To me; evolution is more of a stretch than believing in God.

Paralipomenon

Good morning Eliveleth,

I must say I have been enjoying your posts recently even if I have not been active in the "Lazy Faith" thread.

Logically, no person can prove our origins. We do not have that knowledge. If you base your belief in faith, there are so many faiths in the world that claim different origins, so what makes one interpretation of God better than another?. It takes some humility to admit whether we have faith in the divine or belief in science, either cannot be proven.

Logically though, if you believe in a creator that has no end and no beginning that same concept can be applied to our universe. Since everything we can observe has a beginning and end I don't think our minds can truly grasp the concept of infinite. I think the best we can do is either accept it, or deny it but will never really understand.

So I guess I'll redirect your question back at you in a different form. If God is infinite, couldn't the universe be infinite as well? Why can't the concept of infinity be applied to evolution?

the dreamer dreaming

the only explanation that matters to any of us is how consciousness came to be... the thing is that somehow reality woke up, we do not have to call reality the creator as it did not create itself.... but I do call it the Generator Of Dreams as we are all reality dreaming about ourself... logic suggests that 1+0=1 so that one reality has always been, nothing has ever been added to it and it still exists. logic also says that this one reality can be divided nearly infinitily, and here we are.

Terry

Now that logic has been discussed and we have a handle on it--can anyone show me the logic of life without a creator. I still need the logic of how life began.

Everything comes from something, right?

So, the Universe had to come from something.

But, God didn't come from anything, right?

And God is more complex than the Universe itself.

So, logic doesn't really work in proving God doesn't need an origin.

The wondrous complexity of a Creator demands an origin too.

But, this doesn't bother believers. They suddenly become satisfied we need look for no further answers.

Just as long as you give them God they'll be happy.

It is perfectly ILLOGICAL that God doesn't need a beginning or an origin.

Otherwise, it becomes perfectly logical that the universe needs no origin.

You can't have it both ways!

startingover

We all put faith in concepts on a daily basis. Boarding an airplane and relaxing as we are lifted so high we have to rely on on board oxygen and cabin pressure to survive. We put faith in the airplane and all the trained people involved in making it possible but in short we are putting faith in the concept of flying. We believe it has been safely demonstrated enough times for us to commit ourselves to it.
We put faith in this concept because we have seen it demonstrated enough times to try it out. We are then able to add our own experience to the experience of others and the reality of what we have seen demonstrated. Some people have never flown and simply can‘t except the concept of flying. They know other people do but they do not feel that it's safety has been demonstrated to their satisfaction.

It hit me while reading this that "trust" would be a better word to use in the above instead of "faith".

RAF

Sorry, but I still get pissed when I read scientist calculating infinate varibles. Last time I checked infinity was as good as absolute zero in terms. The diffrence being infinity means we know something exists though not how much. Zero means it does not exist at all period. Though argubly the anwser is the same IDK.
VxI=R If
If V is 5.
What is I or R for that matter.
What are you talking about? Scientist calculating infinate variables? What is that ? what means infinate in your sentences?
a scientist do not try to calculate if it's not needed or if he don't find out a value even just a hint about this value as valuable, a mathematician neither about infinate decimales (Pi for instance being 2.14 is good enough to do what we need to do with it instead of 2.139................)
Now your example does not talk about infinite it talks about UNKNOWN (AGAIN - infinite possibilities if you want - AS UNKNOW for UNPROVABLE AS ABSOLUTE).
This example is not about infinty but unknow in mathematic (algebrically put) an algebrically too (of course) there is no way to find out ... in this case for instance you need the precise value of at least two variables ... otherwise you have an infinity of possibilities for being totally UNKNOW.

Eliveleth

Terry said:

Everything comes from something, right?

So, the Universe had to come from something.

But, God didn't come from anything, right?

And God is more complex than the Universe itself.

So, logic doesn't really work in proving God doesn't need an origin.

The wondrous complexity of a Creator demands an origin too.

But, this doesn't bother believers. They suddenly become satisfied we need look for no further answers.

Just as long as you give them God they'll be happy.

It is perfectly ILLOGICAL that God doesn't need a beginning or an origin.

Otherwise, it becomes perfectly logical that the universe needs no origin.

You can't have it both ways!

I guess you are right. It is illogical that God didn't have a beginning. I always thought I was a logical person, but I guess I am not. I believe, I have faith that God exists and that the Bible is true regarding his origin (or lack thereof). I really feel that my faith is based on logic. The things I see, seem to me to tell me about the God I worship. The trees, vegetation, sun, water, all the things that we need to live. It is hard for me to believe that it just randomly happened; that the universe and we all came to be by chance. Perhaps I am blinded because I want to believe it is true, but I choose to do so because it gives me joy and peace. Given the fact that the alternative, which is there is no God, no heaven, I just feel that since you pointed out it is a toss-up anyway, I choose to believe that God exists. Perhaps there is a certain adaptive evolution which causes changes to existing species, but I cannot accept that we descended from some single-celled organism that grew out of a sea of mud. (Which apparently some evolutionists don't believe either from some of my research). I truly feel for you Terry. I would hate to have an unfilled God-sized hole. I can't even imagine how that would be. I truly pray that God will reveal himself to you.

Eliveleth

Paralipomenon said:

Good morning Eliveleth,

I must say I have been enjoying your posts recently even if I have not been active in the "Lazy Faith" thread.

So I guess I'll redirect your question back at you in a different form. If God is infinite, couldn't the universe be infinite as well? Why can't the concept of infinity be applied to evolution? Thank you so much for your kindness. It has been very hard for me to accept any part of evolution. I have done a lot of research online today to try to get an idea of why so many people believe that evolution is so much more acceptable than the idea that God is the creator. People believe in evolution in so many different ways. I still do not see it as more logical. I do see that animals adapt to their environment in different ways, I had just not seen that as evolution. . I guess it is true, the universe could be infinite. I just never thought about it before. I have really enjoyed interacting with those with different beliefs. As a witness, I was so judgmental . I am so glad that I am free from that mindset and I can accept people for who they are.

Terry

I cannot accept that we descended from some single-celled organism

The smallest cell in a man's body is the sperm cell. It is just one tiny cell.

A woman's egg is smaller than the period at the end of this sentence.

Yet, these single cells produce physics professors, circus acrobats and Tupac Shakur!

How is it so impossible that we descended from a single-celled organism when we can hardly wrap our mind around what we actually know?

RAF

The smallest cell in a man's body is the sperm cell. It is just one tiny cell.
A woman's egg is smaller than the period at the end of this sentence.
Yet, these single cells produce physics professors, circus acrobats and Tupac Shakur!
How is it so impossible that we descended from a single-celled organism when we can hardly wrap our mind around what we actually know?
but, but, but THIS TALKS FOR BOTH SIDES ... Now what about what we can't see?
Again your rejection of one side is more about your own way to expect God to be

UNDENIABLE LOGIC. Some cherish it while others dismiss it. Which are you?

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