DNA & SOFT TISSUE CONFIRMED IN 68 "MILLION" YEAR T-REX !

by Perry 66 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Perry
    Perry

    Perhaps the real story here is that the common folks are able to read this story at all given the authoritarian nature of the scientific community.

    Isn't it funny how only a Christian could link "the smell of death" with the possibility of 'soft tissues" ?

    I gotta tell ya folks. Much of what goes on in the scientific community is just retarded. I have been creating and running multi-million dollar companies since my early 20's with only an 8th grade education. I did it with non-empirical analysis of data. At age 26 I paid cash for my half million dollar home that I now live in. My father was a ditch digger (literally not proverbially).

    In my opinion, if a persons tries to run a business (or a life for that matter) from a strictly empirical standpoint they will end up an idiot. I invite anyone interested to google:

    limits of empiricism

    faults of empiricism

    critique of The God Delusion

    Originally published in Discover, April 2006 - italics mine

    EVER SINCE MARY HIGBY SCHWEITZER peeked inside the fractured thighbone of a Tyrannosaurus rex, the introverted scientist's life hasn't been the same. Neither has the field of paleontology.

    Two years ago, Schweitzer gazed through a microscope in her laboratory at North Carolina State University and saw lifelike tissue that had no business inhabiting a fossilized dinosaur skeleton: fibrous matrix, stretchy like a wet scab on human skin; what appeared to be supple bone cells, their three-dimensional shapes intact; and translucent blood vessels that looked as if they could have come straight from an ostrich at the zoo.

    By all the rules of paleontology, such traces of life should have long since drained from the bones. It's a matter of faith among scientists that soft tissue can survive at most for a few tens of thousands of years, not the 65 million since T. rex walked what's now the Hell Creek Formation in Montana. But Schweitzer tends to ignore such dogma. She just looks and wonders, pokes and prods, following her scientific curiosity. That has allowed her to see things other paleontologists have missed—and potentially to shatter fundamental assumptions about how much we can learn from the past. If biological tissue can last through the fossilization process, it could open a window through time, showing not just how extinct animals evolved but how they lived each day. "Fossils have richer stories to tell—about the lub-dub of dinosaur life—than we have been willing to listen to," says Robert T. Bakker, curator of paleontology at the Houston Museum of Natural Science. "This is one spectacular proof of that." ...

    Rhetoric like this has put Schweitzer at the center of a raging cultural controversy, because she is not just a pioneering paleontologist but also an evangelical Christian. That fact alone has prompted some prominent paleontologists to be even more skeptical about her scientific research. Some creationists have questioned her work from the other direction, pressing her to refute Darwinian evolution. But in her religious life, Schweitzer is no more of an ideologue than she is in her scientific career. In both realms, she operates with a simple but powerful consistency: The best way to understand the glory of the world is to open your eyes and take an honest look at what is out there.

    Reticent by nature, Schweitzer rarely grants interviews and shies away from making grand pronouncements about her scientific research or her religious faith. Instead of news stories about her stunning findings, she has adorned her office wall with a verse from the book of Jeremiah: "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."


    SCHWEITZER'S UNCONVENTIONAL VIEW of the fossilized past is rooted in her enduring sense of wonder. When she was 5, her older brother gave her a copy of Oliver Butterworth's The Enormous Egg, a fantasy that plays off the then-controversial notion of a close kinship between dinosaurs and birds. She became a dinosaur buff, but as so often happens, with adulthood her interests drifted in other directions. She spent summers selling snow cones and fireworks. She worked with deaf children. She earned an undergraduate degree in communicative disorders and a certificate in secondary education.

    In 1989, while dividing her time between substitute teaching and her three children, Schweitzer steered back toward her childhood fascination with dinosaurs. She approached Jack Horner, a renowned dinosaur scientist, and asked if she could audit his vertebrate paleontology course at Montana State University. He appreciated her refreshingly nontraditional mind. "She really wasn't much of a scientist—which is good," says Horner, curator of paleontology at the Museum of the Rockies. "Scientists all get to thinking alike, and it's good to bring people in from different disciplines. They ask questions very differently." ...


    Schweitzer's career began just as paleontologists started framing their own questions in more multidimensional ways. Until the 1980s, researchers were more likely to be trained in earth science than in biology. They often treated fossils as geologic specimens—mineral structures whose main value lay in showing the skeletal shapes of prehistoric animals. A younger generation of paleontologists, in contrast, has focused on reconstructing intimate details like growth rates and behaviors using modern techniques normally associated with the study of living organisms. "It's taking dinosaurs from being curious fossils to being biological entities," says Hans-Dieter Sues, associate director for research and collections at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C.

    This shifting perspective clicked with Schweitzer's intuitions that dinosaur remains were more than chunks of stone. Once, when she was working with a T. rex skeleton harvested from Hell Creek, she noticed that the fossil exuded a distinctly organic odor. "It smelled just like one of the cadavers we had in the lab who had been treated with chemotherapy before he died," she says. Given the conventional wisdom that such fossils were made up entirely of minerals, Schweitzer was anxious when mentioning this to Horner. "But he said, 'Oh, yeah, all Hell Creek bones smell,'" she says. To most old-line paleontologists, the smell of death didn't even register. To Schweitzer, it meant that traces of life might still cling to those bones.

    She had already seen signs of exceptional preservation in the early 1990s, while she was studying the technical aspects of adhering fossil slices to microscope slides. One day a collaborator brought a T. rex slide to a conference and showed it to a pathologist, who examined it under a microscope. "The guy looked at it and said, 'Do you realize you've got red blood cells in that bone?' " Schweitzer remembers. "My colleague brought it back and showed me, and I just got goose bumps, because everyone knows these things don't last for 65 million years."

    When Schweitzer showed Horner the slide, she recalls, "Jack said, 'Prove to me they're not red blood cells.' That was what I got my Ph.D. doing." She first ruled out contaminants and mineral structures. Then she analyzed the putative cells using a half-dozen techniques involving chemical analysis and immunology. In one test, a colleague injected rats with the dinosaur fossil extract; the rodents produced antibodies that responded to turkey and rabbit hemoglobins. All the data supported the conclusion that the T. rex fossil contained fragments of hemoglobin molecules. "The most likely source of these proteins is the once-living cells of the dinosaur," she wrote in a 1997 paper.

    That article, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, sparked a small flurry of headlines. Horner and others regarded Schweitzer's research as carefully performed and credible. Nonetheless, says Horner, "most people were very skeptical. Frequently in our field people come up with new ideas, and opponents say, 'I just don't believe it.' She was having a hard time publishing in journals."
    Schweitzer was also stymied by her unconventional fusion of paleontology and molecular biology. "Those are two disciplines we don't usually see in the same sentence," says Lawrence Witmer, an Ohio University anatomy professor. Techniques that were routine in one discipline seemed odd when applied to the other. "If she was working with modern animals, there wouldn't be anything special about what she was doing," says Horner. But molecular paleontology was unheard-of. "It is a wide-open field that she invented," Horner says.

    Soldiering on with minimal funding, Schweitzer continued to hunt for the retention of living tissue longer than scientific theory might predict. When a group of fossil hunters found a cluster of preserved bird eggs in a city dump in Neuquén, Argentina, they originally believed the shells contained nothing but sand. Schweitzer placed the remains under scanning electron and atomic force microscopes and concluded that the 70-million-year-old eggs still held embryos containing intact collagen.

    For eight years, Schweitzer's career bobbed along with innovative but not attention-grabbing projects. Then she found that stretchy stuff inside a T. rex femur. ...

    Her lab was still stacked with unpacked cartons when she opened the cardboard box from the T. rex dig and pulled out the biggest fragment. Looking at it with the eyes of a biologist, she immediately saw it was more than a fossil. Time and history began to unwind. "Oh, my gosh," she said to her laboratory assistant, Jennifer Wittmeyer. "It's a girl. And it's pregnant."

    What Schweitzer saw was medullary bone, a type of tissue that grows inside the long bones of female birds. Medullary bone is produced during ovulation as a way of storing the calcium needed for egg production; then it disappears. "I looked at it under the dissecting scope," Schweitzer says. "There was nothing else it could be." The medullary bone even contained gaps and mazelike fiber patterns resembling those of modern birds. ....

    .... "When you wiggled it, it kind of floated in the breeze."

    Schweitzer and Wittmeyer pondered the meaning of the stretchy sample, feeling mystified and ecstatic. The remains seemed like soft tissue—specifically matrix, the organic part of bone, which consists primarily of collagen. Yet this seemed impossible, according to the prevailing understanding. "Everyone knows how soft tissues degrade," Schweitzer says. "If you take a blood sample and you stick it on a shelf, you have nothing recognizable in about a week. So why would there be anything left in dinosaurs?"

    Next Schweitzer examined a piece of the dinosaur's cortical bone. "We stuck the bone in the same kind of solution," she says. "The bone mineral dissolved away, and it left these transparent blood vessels. I took one look, and I just said: 'Uh-uh. This isn't happening. This is just not happening.' " She started applying the same treatment to bone fragments from another dinosaur that she had acquired for her dissertation. "Sure enough," she says, "vessels all over the place."

    Less than a month later, while Schweitzer was still collecting data on the soft tissue, came a third score. Wittmeyer walked into the lab looking anxious. "I think maybe some of our stuff's gotten contaminated, because I see these things floating around, and they look like bugs," she said. Worried that she would lose her dinosaur blood vessels before she could publish an article about them, Schweitzer rushed to rescue the sample. What she found startled her. Through the microscope she could see what looked like perfectly formed osteocytes, the cells inside bone.
    The past was roaring to life.


    SCHWEITZER PUBLISHED HER FINDINGS in reverse order—soft tissue first, then the medullary bone—in the journal Science last year. The ensuing avalanche of publicity, sometimes couched in breathless hyperbole ("Jurassic Park-type find could be first step in re-creating T. rex," huffed a story in the Ottawa Citizen), made her squeamish. She tried to ignore the media, but to no avail. Since the articles appeared, she has become one of the world's best-known paleontologists. Her findings challenge such basic assumptions about animal preservation that her colleagues have put her research—and the woman herself—under the microscope.
    If soft tissue can last 65 million years, Horner says, "there may be a lot of things out there that we've missed because of our assumption of how preservation works." James Farlow, a paleontologist at Indiana University–Purdue University at Fort Wayne, adds, "If you can preserve soft tissue under these circumstances, all bets are off."

    Schweitzer's work opens the possibility of comparing dinosaur tissue with the tissue of living animals. It could also allow scientists to reconstruct ancient biology, such as prehistoric disease. If paleontologists encounter vascular channels in dinosaur fossils, they might also find nematodes, or roundworms, that lived off the animals' internal organs. "I'll bet you a six-pack of Coors that pretty soon people will be discovering Cretaceous parasites inside Cretaceous bones," says Bakker. "The possibility of looking into epidemiology and pathology is pretty cool."

    On the flip side, Jeffrey Bada, an organic geochemist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego, cannot imagine soft tissue surviving millions of years. He says the cellular material Schweitzer found must be contamination from outside sources. Even if the T. rex had died in a colder, drier climate than Hell Creek, environmental radiation would have degraded its body, Bada says: "Bones absorb uranium and thorium like crazy. You've got an internal dose that will wipe out biomolecules." ...

    Schweitzer agrees. "I am a slam-dunk scientist," she says. "I would have much rather held the paper back until we had reams and reams of data." But without publishing a journal article, she says, she could never have hoped for funding."Without the papers in Science, I didn't stand a chance," she says. "That's the saddest part about doing science in America: You are totally driven by what gets you funding." Since publishing, Schweitzer has conducted many of the analyses Poinar suggests, with initially promising results.

    For a scientist, the ultimate test is having independent researchers replicate your results. So far, there hasn't been a mad rush to do so—few have expertise in both molecular biology and paleontology, not to mention the passion needed to carry out such work. But there is activity. Patrick Orr at University College Dublin is bringing together geologists and organic geochemists to look for soft tissue in a 10-million-year-old frog fossil. Paleontologists at the University of Chicago are setting up a laboratory to look for similar tissue in more T. rex remains; Horner is starting to decalcify other dinosaur bones. In the dinosaur lab at the Children's Museum of Indianapolis, Bakker has taken some peeks. "I haven't found anything yet," he says, "but wouldn't be a bit surprised if soon somebody comes up with more sticky, bouncy stuff." ...


    Truth is, Schweitzer hasn't even bothered to look for DNA. She has simply hunkered down to work in her characteristic way: keeping her eyes and her attitude wide open. "So many things are coming together that suggest preservation is far better than we've ever given it credit for," she says. "I think it's stupid to say, 'You're never going to get DNA out of dinosaur bone, you're never going to get proteins out of dinosaur bone, you're never going to do this, you're never going to do that.' As a scientist, I don't think you should ever use the word never."

    The recent article in my original post confirms the proteins that she says to never say never about. Is she releasing discoveries in "reverse order" like she did before?

    Go Mary!!!

  • Perry
    Perry

    Leolaia writes:

    the other big distortion is his claim that the scientists found "flesh and blood encased in the bone",

    Let's review shall we?

    The evidence that hemoglobin has indeed survived in this dinosaur bone (which casts immense doubt upon the 'millions of years' idea) is as follows:

    • The tissue was colored reddish brown, the color of hemoglobin, as was liquid extracted from the dinosaur tissue.
    • Hemoglobin contains heme units. Chemical signatures unique to heme were found in the specimens when certain wavelengths of laser light were applied.
    • Because it contains iron, heme reacts to magnetic fields differently from other proteins -- extracts from this specimen reacted in the same way as modern heme compounds.
    • To ensure that the samples had not been contaminated with certain bacteria which have heme (but never the protein hemoglobin), extracts of the dinosaur fossil were injected over several weeks into rats. If there was even a minute amount of hemoglobin present in the T. Rex sample, the rats' immune system should build up detectable antibodies against this compound. This is exactly what happened in carefully controlled experiments.
    • Physical proteins (hemoglobin ?) have been sequenced.
    • Original soft stretchy tissue was found, collegen
    • Blood cells were found - " Through the microscope she could see what looked like perfectly formed osteocytes, the cells inside bone."
    • The dig site and bones themselves smelled like roting flesh or "exactly like a cadaver"
    • Blood vessels were observed - "We stuck the bone in the same kind of solution," she says. "The bone mineral dissolved away, and it left these transparent blood vessels. "Sure enough," she says, "vessels all over the place."

    Can you please explain which of the above elements of blood and flesh is so personally objectionable to you that you would feel it necessary to accuse me of "distortion" for using the phrase "flesh and blood encased in the bone"?

    You may cherish any number of personal fantasies about your own reality... that's your business. But, when you accuse others of distortion please have the decency to apologize or examine the evidence above.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Perry....This discussion should not be about scientists being "authoritarian" or hard-nosed, it should be about getting facts straight. That's what I am trying to do here, correct some very basic inaccuracies in your posts that distort the meaning and significance of the discovery. I don't doubt that you mean well, but it is also clear that your anti-evolution agenda is leading you astray here.

    Here is a brief survey of some of your misleading statements in this thread:

    DNA & SOFT TISSUE CONFIRMED IN 68 "MILLION" YEAR T-REX !

    No DNA was confirmed in MOR 1125 (the dinosaur specimen reported in the article).

    Look at how fresh it appears! This has to be one of the greatest scientific discoveries of all time.... stretchy tissue, blood vessels and cellular structures, successful sequencing of DNA in a dinosaur T.rex

    There was no sequencing of dinosaur DNA. And the appearance of freshness was achieved through extensive demineralization of the specimen and lengthy hydration in water.

    Notable, the article did not state that they did not find DNA.

    That is not the same thing as saying that they found DNA. It would have been reported in the official publication if actual DNA was recovered.

    So,how can you state: There was no DNA extacted or sequenced as implied by the thread title. DNA is a protein isn't it?

    Even if DNA were a protein (which it is not), saying that they discovered a protein would not mean that they discovered DNA. It would be like saying you heard an octopus roar at the zoo because an octopus is an animal, and a lion is an animal, isn't it?

    The tissue was colored reddish brown, the color of hemoglobin, as was liquid extracted from the dinosaur tissue.

    There was no liquid in the tissue until after it had been hydrated for over a week.

    The evidence that hemoglobin has indeed survived in this dinosaur bone

    Discovery of degraded components of hemoglobin is not a discovery of hemoglobin.

    Physical proteins (hemoglobin ?) have been sequenced.

    As I said, collagen, not hemoglobin. Collagen is not DNA, and collagen is not hemoglobin.

    Blood cells were found - " Through the microscope she could see what looked like perfectly formed osteocytes, the cells inside bone."

    Osteocytes are not blood cells. Schweitzer is careful not to claim that they are preserved osteocytes, calling them "cell-like microstructures", as it would take further testing to confirm what these are made of chemically (as it is possible that the original osteocytes were replaced chemically with other material, tho leaving behind their form). The same goes with the "small round microstructures" in the vessels. Until they test these as they did to confirm the collagen, we do not know how much of the original material was preserved. But since the collagen proteins were probably preserved at a molecular level through chemical bonding, there is no a priori reason why we couldn't expect other larger structures to have been preserved via the mineralization process.

    "flesh and blood encased in the bone"?

    As I said above, there has been no confirmation that MOR 1125 contains blood per se as opposed to remnants of blood components.

    On and on.

    My larger point is the one that Schweitzer is making (as quoted in your article): "So many things are coming together that suggest preservation is far better than we've ever given it credit for," she says. "I think it's stupid to say, 'You're never going to get DNA out of dinosaur bone, you're never going to get proteins out of dinosaur bone". In other words, the discovery forces a rethink on TAPHONOMY (which always has been poorly understood) not DATING. "It's a matter of faith among scientists that soft tissue can survive at most for a few tens of thousands of years, not the 65 million since T. rex walked what's now the Hell Creek Formation in Montana". Schweitzer's point is that without understanding all the many different ways fossils can be preserved, someone like you (Perry) cannot claim a priori that it's impossible for soft tissue -- even DNA -- to survive 65 million years. I already made the point that it is NOT impossible because soft tissue has been discovered all the time in AMBER. As you yourself note as well:

    The first successful DNA extraction was from an extinct termite , Mastotermes electrodominicus

    Which was preserved in amber.

    Ancient DNA has also been extracted from stingless bees being studied by Raul Cano and from a 123 million year old extinct weevil examined by George Poinar

    Which was preserved in amber.

    As Bill Clinton would say, "It's all about the preservation, stupid!". Amber preserves soft tissue incredibly well, sealing out oxygen and exogenous agents and putting organism in stasis. You could put a body in outer space where it would be preserved for millions, if not billions of years, as there is no air or life to decompose it. Just because something can be preserved doesn't mean it can't be old. When the Iron Age bog people were first discovered a hundred or more years ago, police thought that these must have been recent murders. The bodies were so finely preserved, no one could have imagined that they were really many hundreds of years old. Similarly, the Iceman discovered in the Alps in the 1990s was first thought to have been a hiker who got lost and died of exposure. Who could have thought that even the berries he carried could have remained fresh after four thousand years? Again, people were amazed to discover that something so ancient could be preserved so well. The lesson is that it is fallacious to jump to the conclusion that the dinosaur bones could not have been so old just because they were preserved so well. Otherwise, the Iceman must've died only 100 years ago because no way something so old could be preserved so well. And surely the bog people must've died only in the 1700s, because no way something so old could have been preserved like that. As I mentioned yesterday, once something is put into stasis like a fly in amber, it doesn't matter much how much time passes subsequently. Sure, there may still be degradation of DNA and other chemical structures, but it hardly makes any difference when you compare such a specimen with a fly buried in mud that wouldn't last two weeks. The challenge here is to discover what is so special about the Hell Creek site that led to the kind of unprecedented preservation found there. If you want to challenge the 68 mya dating of the MOR 1125 sample, then one would have to tackle the techniques that independently led to that dating (see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/flesh.html for a discussion). Otherwise, you are just putting an unwarranted assumption (that such remains could not possibly have been preserved so long, despite other known examples of preservation such as in amber) against hard science.

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    Protein and DNA are biochemically totally different molecules so let's not confuse the two. Collagen is a kind of protein that helps bind organs and tissues together, DNA is found in the nucleus of cells and the genes are made of it, it has to do with inheritance. Haemoglobin is mainly made of another type of protein but also has the haem group which is not a protein and contains iron which is what makes blood red.

    As I said earlier I don't believe that such organic structures can be preserved for millions of years and even scientists thought they could only last for a few tens of thousands of years unless preserved in subzero temperatures in which case they could linger on for a million years or so.

    Having to deal with such tissues in so called 70 million year fossils has perplexed them. They have no choice but to take the position that proteins and some soft tissues made of them (albeit encased in a mineralised matrix and extracted by acid), as well as DNA can last that long.

    If more dinosaur bones are broken then more soft tissues may be found so it would be interesting to do this. Perhaps with an indisputable presence of blood?

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon

    Perry said:
    This discovery gives immensely powerful support to the proposition that dinosaur fossils are not millions of years old at all, but were mostly fossilized under catastrophic conditions a few thousand years ago at most.

    Perry missed the point where the scientist said:
    This substitution process was thought to be complete by 1 million years.

    Paralipomenon says:
    Your assertions seem to have a 997,000 year buffer for error.

    Sometimes, when you really want to see something, you'll ignore the points that don't support your vision. :)

  • Perry
    Perry

    Leoalia,

    I already conceded the fact that this particular article did not specifically address DNA, though it certainly didn't rule it out. But, thank you for pointing that out....several times. Isn't it wonderful though that other scientists at other universities have found 120 "million" year old DNA? Or even the barely adolescent much younger 70 "million" year old DNA claimed found in bones? I'm sure you are intriqued as I am with these findings. Other announcements will most likely soon follow and be released as soon as audiences are properly prepared by the scientific power brokers. The real problem with your way of thinking is this:

    First you say:

    Neither was there any blood.

    Then you contradict yourself by saying:

    As I said above, there has been no confirmation that MOR 1125 contains blood per se as opposed to remnants of blood components.

    Now, I will not go as far as you did and accuse you of "distortion" as you did of me for my technical mistake. But, with all due respect, this is the exact argument that the Watchtower uses to say that on the one hand, people can accept blood components, and then on the other hand claim that Jehovah's Witnesses don't accept blood! It's called cognitive dissonance. It's craziness. We all know that ...c'mon be real.

    How can you legitimately criticize the Watchtower for saying that small organic blood components don't constitute blood and then turn right around on this thread and argue the exact opposite admitting that organic blood components were found while still holding the opposite idea "neither was there any blood"? That is intellectual dishonesty even if it is done outside of your conscious awareness. (Which I hope to be the case.)

    As for the other claim that I made that "flesh" was found "encased inside the bone", ...fleshy tissue was precisely what was found. The stretchy soft tissue reference is made all over the article(s) and apparently even one soft part was large enough to be handled, according to the Discovery magazine interview I posted.

    Since the soft tissue in the dinosaur bone was mineralized and bonded to inorganic molecules, it doesn't matter how many millions of years old the bone would eventually become;

    And you know this how? Research to prove your claim please! Oh, I forgot. We weren't around millions of years ago so this excuses your need to provide evidence. How convenient to your worldview. Please see the picture of the mineralized soft tissue turned to stone of the leg still in the cowboy boot from the 1950's on page 1 of this thread.

    Because of this, it is quite rash to argue that all the other evidence pointing to the age of the fossil (e.g. geological strata, radioactive decay, etc.) must be wildly incorrect

    If you came over to my house and I took off my shoes after a full day of work in the south Texas sun, I can assure you that you would have no trouble determining the source of your olfactory discomfort as coming from the flesh of my gorgeous lovable feet. Normal people don't have a problem associating the smell of roting flesh with, ...well roting flesh. None of the other "scientists" bothered to look for organic material as a result of the dinosaur bone stench that smelled just like a "cadaver" until this Christian scientist came along. Apparently, your way of thinking would place you right alongside all the other group think(ers).

    Again, you owe me an apology for accusing me of distortion regarding my reference to flesh and blood encased in bone.

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    I believe I read somewhere that this fossil dinosaur was found in sandstone, which is permeable to water, something that would lessen the chances of soft tissue surviving undecomposed for 70 million years.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Again, you owe me an apology for accusing me of distortion regarding my reference to flesh and blood encased in bone.

    If you have been offended, I certainly do apologize because that was not my intent. But I do not believe I was wrong to say that your statement was misleading (i.e. gives the wrong impression), because it isn't true that they have discovered blood per se in the fossil. They found protein fragments of hemoglobin -- not intact hemoglobin -- and non-protein compounds(such as heme), hence I referred to them as "remnants of blood components" (note that they are remnants, fragments of hemoglobin proteins is not the same thing as an intact hemoglobin molecule). It is misleading because most people would interpret "blood" as referring to, well, blood -- that the specimen contained red blood cells, leukocytes, hemoglobin, plasma, etc. (notice that these blood components are different from the deteriorated fragments of blood components, which is what I was talking about). In other words, what they discovered was far more degraded than what the word "blood" generally implies. I will admit that if they successfully identify the spherical microstructures in the vessels as red blood cells, then it would be fair to say that they have discovered blood. But Schweitzer et al. are careful not to claim that these are blood cells because the original cells could well have been replaced chemically with other material.

    Research to prove your claim please! Oh, I forgot. We weren't around millions of years ago so this excuses your need to provide evidence.

    I'm pretty sure Schweitzer is working on this very problem, as her interest is precisely in the taphonomy of these specimens. That's what scientists do. I'm not a scientist and will await what results come of her research, but if you think you need to be around millions of years ago to say anything secure on these matters, then you may have your own research to do on this (http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html is a good start).

    BTW, do you have any good arguments criticizing the evidence for the dating of the fossil ("based on 86 separate chemical analyses on three different kinds of minerals, based on four independent radiometric decay series", which all closely agree with each other)?

  • Kaput
    Kaput

    So when can I pick up a velociraptor at the pet store?

  • under_believer
    under_believer
    This discovery gives immensely powerful support to the proposition that dinosaur fossils are not millions of years old at all, but were mostly fossilized under catastrophic conditions a few thousand years ago at most.

    LOL, really? Even if we took all your false claims at face value (claims which Leolaia has done a more-than-competent job of debunking by simply, actually reading the same article you did), would the sequencing of dino-DNA and the discovery of dino-blood and dino-tissue really give "immensely powerful support" to that proposition?

    Would any normal person, on discovering these things, suddenly slap their forehead and shout "Eureka! This tissue must have been fossilized under catastrophic conditions a few thousand years ago at most!"

    No.

    No, only someone who took the ancient, distilled-from-much-older-oral-traditions, many-times-copied, many-times-translated writings of a thousands-of-years gone tribe of nomadic desert shepherds as the literal, inerrant, perfect Word of an angry, jealous, petty, insecure, rage-filled, vengeant God, in opposition of every shred of unified evidence produced in the last three hundred years in the fields of astronomy, geology, biology, phsyics, hydrology, radiology, paleontology, and meteorology, the work of many, many thousands of learned men and women who arrived at the same conclusions completely independently, using completely unrelated discoveries from a broad, diverse set of scientific disciplines in both the hard and soft sciences, all of which completely and harmoniously agree with each other, would do that.

    Non sequitur, Perry. It does not follow.

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