by NewTruth 28 Replies latest watchtower bible
Welcome NewTruth, I don't know but as far as bringing glory to God or praise, it doesnt' matter, I believe there are things that we just cannot understand right now but are not important
As Paul said, "make sure of the more important things"
Such as faith in Christ and his sacrifice, love of God and neighbor, be child like and realize we need humility, stay focused on what we do know, love builds up, knowledge puffs up
You are to be admired for deep thinking though.
abr
Hey, I can appreciate when someone genuinely shares what they think a passage of scripture means, and respectfully asks what others think about it.
As for me, I haven't closely examined those scriptures to be honest with you, but offhand I would wonder by what criteria "Judah", "Jerusalem", "house of Jacob", etc., shouldn't actually mean "Judah", "Jerusalem", etc. In a sense, by totally allegorizing those terms, IMO, it makes Isaiah's prophecy less convincing.
M.J....Right, this is especially clear when you read ch. 2 in light of ch. 1 which describes Judah laid waste and Jerusalem besieged (1:4-9), which criticizes the leaders of Jerusalem for bringing Yahweh's punishment on the land for indulging in sacrifices only to maintain their sinful conduct (1:10-20), and which laments (in a qinah lament) how the city has become corrupted (1:21-28) and explaining that there is hope that "Zion will be redeemed by justice and her penitents by integrity" (v. 27). What follows in ch. 2 is thus the glorious hope of the city restored, with all rebels and sinners expunged, and pure worship and peace with all nations in harmony. The historical setting of these visions likely belongs to the Assyrian campaigns in Judah and Israel, particularly the ones in 735 and 701 BC (see 2 Kings 17-19). Note that this oracle in 2:1-4 is incorporated into Micah 4:13, dated contemporaneously to "the time of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah" (Micah 1:1), and the book as a whole reflects the prior Assyrian desolation of Samaria and Judah (cf. 1:5, 8-15) and still sees Assyria as a gathering threat (5:4-5). The oracle in question expresses a hope for a restored Israel with the Temple free from religious hypocrasy and with peace in the land, where other countries like Assyria are no longer a threat. Such hopes for a restored Israel become a leitmotif in the exilic period (cf. Ezekiel) and post-exilic period. The failure for these hopes to be realized in the face of Gentile oppression were motivators of later messianic movements.
I see, not alot on this site like to analyze the scriptures anymore.. Don't blame you, the WT is enough to make anyone give up.. I've been a bible reader for 28 years now.. and am not going to let the WT destroy me, even though it could.
Yes, Triple A...I do think the 144,000 are the ones the nations stream to to learn.. like the scripture that says that 10 men will hold on to the skirt of a Jew. And I think they are right here on earth..
Doug.. This isn't a wild gues on my part.. I've studied quite seriously for 28 years now... Unlike the witlesses, I think the G Trib, is the last days.. While they think the last days start long before the GT.. What do you all think about that?
MJ. I think the terms, Jacob..etc.. are antitypical meanings of God's anointed.. Isreal of God...both Jews and Gentiles..
Leolaia: Totally agree with you...except I also think that the prophesy has more than 1 fullfillment. Do you believe in antitypical fullfillments?
NewTruth,
I commented that your explanation of Isa 2:2 were “wild guesses”. If you feel offended at my comment, please accept my apologies, for that was not my intention.
I can only comment on what I can see in your Post, and I believe that I see leaps in reasoning, without a sequenced explanation. I am not aware of your hermeneutic principles, I could only see the jumps in reasoning. Have you seen my picture on page 2 of my note “knight-jump hermeneutics”? It’s at http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Knight_jump_hermeneutic.pdf
Your experience with this verse is 28 years longer than my experience with it, so I need to be taken through the steps, rationally.
I am concerned that you seem to be using the OT to interpret the NT, which I believe is the wrong way around. The words of the NT must be used to explain the OT. Are there any NT passages that are direct quotations of Isa 2:2?
You acknowledge the analysis provided by Leolaia. I would therefore like to see how the structure given to the first two chapters of Isaiah provides a model for a secondary or even ternary fulfillment (some call this apotelesmatic – repeated and greater – fulfillments”).
Whom or what does “Jerusalem” symbolize across both chapters? We expect to see consistency of application across the two chapters, since they are closely bound, doctrinally and historically.
Where do you fit the “Great Trouble”? We know that at Matthew 24:21, this “Trouble” preceded and was associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. Or do you have a secondary/ternary fulfillment from Isaiah 2 folding into Matthew 24, and then you consider that the fulfillment in Matthew 24 itself was to have a secondary/ternary fulfillment?
The 144,000 do not relate to the “Great Trouble”, since the Revelator says the ultimate winds of strife are “held back” to enable the 144,000 virgin Jewish men to be sealed – or is some part of that phrase literal while another part is symbolic, to fit one’s desired outcome?
Doug
Hi New Truth
To have a second fulfillment a "prophecy" should logically have had a first one... In the case of Isaiah 2, what do you think it was?
If we allow for the possibility of failed prophecies, pure and simple, many Bible texts become way clearer, and certainly no less interesting.
Put another way, say Pat Robertson predicted God would establish the US as his new base of operations, putting an end to all anti-American sentiment and opposition in the world, setting up his capital in Washington, DC, from where the perfect world rulership emanates. (I know what you're thinking, drawing a parallel btw Isaiah & Pat Robertson is just...wrong)
But then, before this ever happens...China decides it's had enough of this crap and obliterates the USA, taking millions of Americans captive to Beijing.
At this point, what would need to happen for Pat Robertson's prediction to come to pass?
What if a group of non-Americans figure they inherited the "special favor" originally bestowed on the Americans (who, they say, lost it) and further stated that THEY would inherit rulership of the world. Would that actually fulfil what Mr. Robertson predicted (regardless of how you want to label his prediction)?
My own personal feeling is that prophecy is a subject that is best left alone, or at least, left in the hands of those professional theologians who are willing to stick their necks out, on the line by interpreting prophecy. The lessons learned from the WT experience of Bible prophesying should have taught us that this is a hazadous occupation, at best.
I feel that if there is a prophecy mentioned in the OT, which has clearly been fulfilled, then there simply is no need to trace any further meaning in that prophecy. This applies to such a prophecy as that mentioned in Dan 4, regarding the "seven times" Since the Bible itself has said that all the prophecy was fulfilled in king Nebuchadnezzar, to then give it a further meaning, as the WTS does, making it pertinent to our times, no less, is patently absurd. In my opinion, of course.
In prophecies such as those that may have more than one meaning, the first having been fulfilled in the past, then the second meaning must rest on Scripture alone. As Doug mentioned earlier, if no NT writer has indicated a fulfillment in a certain time frame, then to make that second application fit into a theologically moulded framework, supporting a preconceived teaching, is false and smacks of cultism. This may apply to such a prophecy as Matt 24. If it does have a fulfillment beyond the timespan of Christ's words, then that second application must have a Bible approved interpretation. If the last Bible writer, the apostle John said nothing about when that second application was to be, then we can confidently be assured that the Bible canon has left that second application in the future, awaiting an authoratative interpretation by the Lord Himself at His Second Presence which is still in the future. There are those who regard all of Matt 24 having been fulfilled. Thats fine and part of legitimate Bible interpretation. There are others who feel that there is another fulfillment in the future. Well, thats fine as well, whether one agrees with that or not, because that too, is legitimate Bible study.
The exception comes when one applies that second application to our own present time, casting around for modren anecdotes to fit into this preconceived mould. As the examples of such as Herbert W Armstrong, or the WTS, who see themselves in that setting, have taught us, this is dangerous and ultimately futile. It is cultic in thinking. It also requires credulity, and not faith to accept.
The same is with the prophecy at hand, Isa 2. Oddly enough, I don't see any "first" fulfillment in either Isa himself, or in later Israelite history. It must therefore have a fulfillment futute to Isa. When? Dunno.
Reformed theology sees the "last days" as stretching down from the day of Pentecost, since many NT writers understood their times as in some way the "last days" - Isa 2 may therefore belong to Church history, or at least the 1C AD for its fulfillment.
Dispensational theology sees the last days as still in the future, involving the Millennium. If this is so, [I am a dispensationalist myself] then Isa 2 must have a millennial fulfillment with some form of future Israelite assendancy being outlined. If again, this is so, then the details await further, authorative clarification.
But to give it a present day application, complete with out-of-context other prophecies from other parts of the Bible, having no connection whatever is again cultic. Personally, I would avoid such a perilous and uncertain understanding. One never knows.... one may begin to see oneself in Scripture, as Russell, Rutherford, Franz and Armstrong did.
And look where it got them
Cheers
Hi there TruthLover -
I don't believe there are any 'persons' to whom one should go to be taught God's ways - His holy spirit and His written word do that quite competantly. And I believe that anyone 'anointed' by the holy spirit becomes..... (drumroll)...... a CHRISTIAN! There are not 2 classes of Christians - there is one body of believers with one hope, one spirit, one Lord. The 'heavenly calling' is issued FROM heaven, not as an invitation TO heaven.... I also believe we are all striving for that one prize - to be inhabitants of the Kingdom of God. We're not 'sealed' until death - and then it will be up to the King of the Kingdom to place us wherever he wants us. Until then we are all servants and brethren in this life, working under the same 'kindly yoke of Christ' to share the good news about the coming Kingdom.
Other than that - what 'moggy lover' said - ditto for me!
~Watkins~
I am not a scholar
