ADVICE NEEDED: Non-religious recital? Yes/No? (IN A CHURCH!) tee-hee :-)

by Open mind 25 Replies latest members private

• 

  Doubting Bro

  Just saw this thread. Interesting situation. Clearly, your wife sees that the building is just a building and is ok with having the lessons there. Since the recital isn't religious (just like the lessons) and not even sponsored by the church, playing in it would be no different than taking lessons. However, in JW world, appearances are EVERYTHING.

  The real reason, BTW, is that if anyone in the congregation finds out, the nosy BOE will get involved and he'll have to probably quit even taking lessons there since it's a demon-infested, wild beast-ridin', church.

  Yup, a BOE intent on making a big deal about something could have a field day with it.

  I think that your plan of having your wife & son hash it out between them is perfect. I assume you've told them both that you're ok with it? So, now if your wife isn't, then she has to articulate the reasons why which as you brought out are not logical. You never know which straw will break the camels back and all these little things may open her eyes ever so slightly. I am positive they will open your son's eyes, especially if you aren't toeing the society line. I've starting doing this with my wife as well. I have no idea if it will ultimately work, but it seems like the best way.

  Oh, I say this question:

  have been any KHs that have rented out their buildings for secular purposes. Or how about the large facilities in NY? Large halls, apartments, whatever? If they rent them out on occasion, do they require all attendees of the event to listen to JW propaganda?

  The answer is a big fat NO. The official line is that the KH is "dedicated to Jehovah for worship" and should not be used for any secular purposes whether by JWs or non-JWs. From a liability standpoint, it does open them up a bit more, especially since they are probably funding their "insurance" plan based on historical claim information which means JWs only and active JWs are very unlikely to sue the congregation for say a slip and fall. Plus, if they leased the buildings, it may put their non-profit status in jeopardy. And, we all know they generally don't want to provide any sort of outreach to the community.
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  ozziepost

  The word "church" is one of those words that over time has taken on a totally different meaning from what it started out as. Originally it meant the gathering of christian believers; over time, in general use it has come to refer to the building the believrs gather in.

  Thinking on those lines, the "church" in modern parlance is just what it is, a building. I know of many JWs who routinely perform professionally in old church buildings; they are auditoriums with great acoustics.

  The official line by the WT dogma (doggerel) makers is that it's a "conscience matter".
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  The alternative to letting the wife and kid hash it out (a plan I like) is to ask the
  kid what he thinks, then explain to him that the elders might not like it, even
  though Mom and Dad are fine with it. So we have to do it without telling the
  people at the Hall, because WT xx/xx/xx says it's up to us to decide, but
  we don't want to hurt the other JW's feelings when they might decide not to
  go.

  But I am just saying this because it would have further reaches with the kid.
  Possibly the wife, too.
• 

  exwitless

  I was in this EXACT same predicament a couple of years ago. A few years ago (at age 30) I decided to do something I always wanted to do: take voice lessons. This was while we were still dubs, but inactive. I never told any dub that I was doing that, because I knew they'd be judgemental and think "If she can take voice lessons, she ought to be able to come to the meetings."

  The place I took lessons at was a private building, but the owner was the music director at a local church, so they always let her put on her recitals in the church. I wasn't comfortable with it, only because I knew how "bad" it would look to a dub. But I wanted to participate, so I did. Only the families of the kids (yes, I'm grouping myself in with the kids because I was pretty much the only adult performing) came to observe. It did kinda irk me that the lady had to say a prayer before the recital started-completely inappropriate! But other than that, it was completely non-religious.

  I say go for it. Let him participate. It's not a church function, it's just a space to have a recital.
• 

  funkyderek

  Open mind:

  Right now, my wife, son and I are leaning toward him not being able to do it. And the problem is, how to tell the teacher, who is really hyping this recital. BTW, I'm only leaning that way as a matter of strategy, I truly have no problem with him doing it. My wife though, sees it as crossing the line too far and feels we just can't go there.

  What exactly is the "strategy" you are pursuing? Is it more important than your son's welfare and happiness? Try telling the teacher why you're concerned, just to see how ridiculous it seems to people in the real world.

  My advice is to let him do it - if there's any fallout from the JWs, just feign complete surprise, as if the idea that playing a flute in a church could be wrong is as absurd to you as it would be to most people. Then maybe show them that scripture about meat sacrificed to idols, and then tell them to f&*k off! You'll be much happier in the long term.
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  truthsearcher

  It is common practice to hold recitals in church buildings. In fact, we are attending one tonight. Great acoustics, and I can hardly wait to hear jr perform! Also, in our area, secular music exams and competitions are all held in various church buildings. The reason? space, quality of piano (grands), and probably the cost effectiveness.

  I would love to hear that your wife was willing to make this a matter of her conscience and that her conscience says "Go and support your child's efforts". It does seem a bit hypocritical to allow the lessons and not the recital. After all, JEHOVAH knows what you are doing in both cases, right? Maybe your child could be considered as giving a fine witness by his immaculate appearance on the night of the concert?
• 

  jgnat

  So, once again, I seek the input of my fellow JWDers on how to make the most of this latest development in my little corner of dubland. Should he go? Yes/No.

  Another dynamic at play here is your wife's desire to "take a stand". I'd try and get her to see that this particular "stand" is petty. If you want to stay in the sidelines and let their motives play themselves out, why not ask pointed questions to get her to think, put herself in someone else's shoes?

  • What would Soft-Sister-Third-Generation do? Has she faced similar situations before? Why don't you ask her?
  • (Reference Malawi, France, or Russia - Witnesses who daily take a "stand") Here in North America we don't face those same level of persecution, do we? Would a Witness who is facing true persecution in their country even understand our problem?
  • If we were truly to "take a stand", what might we do that would have a greater witness than a clarinet recital?
  • Madame ClarinetTutor sure is excited about the recital. It must be gratifying for her to showcase her student's efforts. Have you approached her about possibly changing venue? How might she feel if some of her students can't participate?
• 

  Junction-Guy

  What is your status as a JW? Are you disfellowshipped? disassociated? Were you ever a JW? The answer to this question could play a part in this.
  
  I say let the child decide. Also is the child baptized?
• 

  Open mind

  Funkyderek said:

  What exactly is the "strategy" you are pursuing?

  I give a pretty complete description of it here:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/132504/1.ashx

  But if you don't feel like reading that, I briefly addressed my strategy with the "whatever list" concept. That is to plant seeds of doubt and/or discontent over time as the various dub issues raise their ugly, absurd heads. Kids seem to be pretty much be on board with not getting dunked before 18. (Hopefully never, or at least 30, like Jesus) They will be going to college.

  Junction guy asked for my "status". I'm mentally free of the Borg, but active with privileges, squeaky clean in the eyes of the local BOE. Wife is a loyal-dub, but with an independent streak that is my main hope for awakening her. Several pre-teen and teen kids.

  Back to strategy: I'm maintaining my good-dub status as long as possible to add credibility to questions I pose or objections I raise within the immediate family. If I were to become a fader or borderline apostate, my wife would totally have her defenses up and not be open to any kind of rational inquiry.

  Funkyderek also said:

  Is it more important than your son's welfare and happiness?

  My immediate family's long-term welfare and happiness is very important to me. If missing this recital ends up being the painful straw that breaks through my son's cognitive dissonance, it will be well worth it in the long run. As I stated earlier, he does have other venues in which to perform.

  And, just to be clear, I've got no problem whatsoever with him doing this personally. But I want to make my wife and him hash it out and put into words exactly why he can or can't do this. I'm thinking it will be very therapeutic.

  Obviously the healthiest thing would be if I could magically click my heels together 3 times and have everyone wake up free of mind control. Unfortunately, that's just a very pleasant fantasy. The tangled web I'm in isn't that simple or easy.

  jgnat

  Thanks for the good questions. I agree that this issue is petty as long as it stays in our family. It won't be seen as petty if it becomes known among the local dubs. Then it will be huge and there's no question in either of our minds that the choices will then be: 1. We back down and say no church stuff period or 2. I lose my precious "privileges" at a minimum, or worse if it gets uglier and poorly chosen words are spoken in the heat of doing battle with nosy elders.
  
  Open Mind
• 

  jgnat

  That's why you get advice from Softy-Sister-Third-Generation first. If everything hits the fan, you can also shatter the supposed "unity" in the local congregation.