Should suicidal or self destructive people have free will?

by The Dragon 74 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • The Dragon
    The Dragon

    Wow...that was a good way of putting it.

    Very big problem it presents too.........When you take away their right and freedom for their own good..or agree with such...you are clearing the way for someone to take away yours as well in the future..should they deem it nessesary for your own good.

    I guess nobody thinks that far ahead though.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I like to think of "reason" and "insanity" as the day and night of the mind. At night you can't see what is just before you and that makes you very vulnerable -- but you can see the stars which the light of day obscures...

    In the ancient world "prophetism" and "insanity" were closely connected (cf. the books of Samuel-Kings and especially the story of Saul "among the prophets"; or the passage in Plato's Timaeus about prophetic mania as sometimes superior to daylight "reason"). There was an unsuperable ambiguity -- the prophets could be dismissed as "merely crazy" and, otoh, any insanity was regarded as potentially meaningful. So the "insane" (the "men in the hand of the god" by an Egyptian expression) were feared, respected and protected -- even if "just in case".

    Foucault points to the 18th century as the time where the major shift occurred: "insanity" was defined against an absolute (and narrow) notion of "reason" and thus became cognitively meaningless and socially worthless. The insane took the place of the lepers; they had to be locked -- both in the midst and out of society; the medical approach (with its endless flow of diagnostical labels) came later and did not question the necessity of social separation. Antipsychiatry in the 60s-80s was a short parenthesis of creative freedom in the continuing history of psychiatrical imprisonment.

    I firmly believe that somehow society, at each stage of its development, generates the type of "insanity" (which can extend to much "antisocial" behaviour) it needs to evolve further. And by locking it out of sight society locks itself into the limits of a very shortsighted "reason". By screening out the hazards of life we may end up choking in our own "safety". Nothing here but a madman's "prophecy," of course...

  • jgnat
    jgnat
    but you can see the stars which the light of day obscures...

    As he gazes in to his night, let's make sure he doesn't step over the edge of a cliff.

    The insane took the place of the lepers; they had to be locked -- both in the midst and out of society;

    There's been a move away from institutionalization in the past few years. Unfortunately, few inmates receive support when they leave the confines of the institution. This has led to more destitute homeless in our city.

    Also, I would say that it is becoming increasingly easy to speak of the insane in polite company. My mother very nearly died of her disease becase HER mother's disease was the Big Family Secret. I was raised told that my grandmother died of Pneumonia Rather, she committed suicide in a mental institution. By the time I was a teenager, the treament for bipolar disorder had progressed to the point that people like my mom could continue to live productive and interesting lives. She has.

    As I've described, Narkissos, I can appreciate, even value, their unique contribution to my life, as long as they don't put themselves in harm's way.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    narkissos,

    fascinating thoughts.

    Foucault points to the 18th century as the time where the major shift occurred: "insanity" was defined against an absolute (and narrow) notion of "reason" and thus became cognitively meaningless and socially worthless.

    i agree with this as well. and, paradoxically, the narrow-mindedness of the "sane" or "normal" becomes what i would argue is unhealthy psychosis in itself. the detatchment/estrangement of mind from nature seems to ensue, and deepen over time. even as a society in terms of culture, imo.

    also, people seem to have forgotten the community-based roll that the shaman has played through our much longer history as humans. usually on the edge of society. not a priest or officiary. equally respected and viewed with some sucspicion by community members. but always part of the community. usually called to shamanism because of some estatic psychological experience. and indeed, with western society's general attitude toward psychedelic substances being what it is, the gap between the shaman and the community grows. the healing that could be taking place is throttled, nature is objectified as an externally meeasurable thing, and the collective cultural ego grows, and the mind becomes The Mind.

    the shaman is not extinct though. just the ears of people have fallen silent. and consumerism pushes people farther away from nature. if the words are not coated in some slick marketing slime, a distant glaze falls over their eyes. "do not compute."

    as the cultural hive mind develops, the people who refuse to join the hive (the very people who would be a catalyst for growth/liberation) are ostrasised.

    tetra

    In the nineteenth century the problem was that God is dead. In the twentieth century the problem is that man is dead.

    The danger of the past was that men became slaves. The danger of the future is that man may become robots.

    - erich fromm
  • The Dragon
    The Dragon

    Common sense...a person with useful or a good idea will not be acting self destructive...but rather will be a target and diagnosised as such by those who hold to and have inferior ideas.

    A good idea is a the biggest threat to bad unsuccessful ideas and those who profit from them.

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