Daniel 4:1-37, "Seven times"

Son of John

Daniel 4:1-37, "Seven times"

What was the tree like, before it was cut down? The situation is described in Daniel 4:11, 12:

“The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth. Its foliage was fair, and its fruit was abundant, and there was food for all on it. Under it the beast of the field would seek shade, and on its boughs the birds of the heavens would dwell, and from it all flesh would feed itself.”

Everything was well. In fact nothing could have been better. This tree had no defects. At what time in the history of humankind were things like this?

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http://koti.mbnet.fi/jpoika/7times/

Son of John
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jwfacts

Interesting concept that the tree was chopped down during the time of the garden of Eden. What I found more interesting was the Bethel response.

" This Bible-based explanation of the Governing body is clearly laid out on the pages 82 through 97 in the book Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy! which you have at your disposal. Therefore we find no need to repeat what is contained therein. For many years this very chapter of the book of Daniel has been dealt with in several articles and publications, and basically the explanation has remained the same.

In practice, you would indicate your separation from Jehovah’s people and their teachings if you started offering different explanations about the significance of prophecies contained in the Bible. "

Woodsman

Funny how they CC your local congregation with this subject but when I got a letter from them with their explanation for the UN scandal they did not CC my local congregation. My PO at the time was troubled by that. I was further convinced of their deceptiveness.

Narkissos

Welcome Son of John,

Great example of how the organisation works, and the impossibility of any inner debate about anything.

That being said, I'd submit that your interpretation basically suffers from the same flaw as the WT one: not taking the text's own interpretation seriously:

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth, whose foliage was beautiful and its fruit abundant, and which provided food for all, under which animals of the field lived, and in whose branches the birds of the air had nests-- it is you, O king!You have grown great and strong. Your greatness has increased and reaches to heaven, and your sovereignty to the ends of the earth. And whereas the king saw a holy watcher coming down from heaven and saying, 'Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave its stump and roots in the ground, with a band of iron and bronze, in the grass of the field; and let him be bathed with the dew of heaven, and let his lot be with the animals of the field, until seven times pass over him'-- this is the interpretation, O king, and it is a decree of the Most High that has come upon my lord the king: Youshall be driven away from human society, and your dwelling shall be with the wild animals. You shall be made to eat grass like oxen, you shall be bathed with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, until you have learned that the Most High has sovereignty over the kingdom of mortals, and gives it to whom he will. As it was commanded to leave the stump and roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be re-established for you from the time that you learn that Heaven is sovereign.

The fate of Nebuchadnezzar, of course, functioning as a timeless parable against pride aimed at any successful "pagan" ruler, including the Seleucids at the time of the final edition of Daniel. Applying it to a particular "kingdom of God" either in Eden or through the Davidic dynasty misses this moral point, which concerns the relationship of human rulers to the ongoing kingdom of God throughout history.

Pahpa

There is nothing in Daniel 4 that indicates a fulfillment other than that which applies to Nebuchadnezzar. Indeed, Daniel describes its fullfillment in the chapter. And there is no reference in the N.T. that links it in anyway to the "Gentile Times." Carl Olaf Jonnson noted in his book, The Gentile Times Reconsidered: "The first expositor known to have arrived at a period of 2,520 years was John Aquila Blrown in 1823." Various commentators used different dates to note the "end" of this period: W. Pym - 1847, J. Fry - 1844, J. Bengal - 1836, W. Holmes - 1836

One of the most prominent and influential men, William Miller, thought the "seven times" would end in 1843. When his movement fell apart, many of his followers began to set new dates. Eventally, Barbour and Russell determined that the "seven times" was from 606 BCE to 1914 CE. With a slight adjustment to 607 BCE, the Watchtower Society has held to these dates ever sincel....

Borgia

Welcome to the board, Son of John.

In addition to what Narkissos already stated: Nebu wrote a letter to all his important dudes in his realm. The matter of that letter was: Who rules in the kingdom of mankind? (The WTS tries to show that it is about UNIVERSAL rulership. That explanation goes beyound the scope of this passage. Compare Genesis after Noah left the ark. You'll find a nice little circle there about all the inhabited earth: Greece, Libya, Egypt, Arabia, Persia, Turkey. Quite limited knowledge is it not?)

The end of the letter relates to the acknowledgement Nebu makes as to WHO that ruler in the kingdom of mankind is......The GOD of HEAVEN(given his ambigious language he may relate here to the God of Daniel or his own God Marduk. But let's not spoil the pleasure with such considerations)

At any rate: this chapter opens doors to a lot of wishful thinking.

I certainly "like" the response from "bethel". FREEEEEEZE MF, don't even breathe apostate thinking or we will be kicking your apostate A** big time!

How loving, is it not?

Cheers

Borgia

jeanV

Welcome son of John!

I can't believe the reply! I've seen a few ridiculous ones, but this one beats them all.

Woodsman did you post anywhere the reply you received concerning the UN?

yaddayadda

Welcome. Unfortunately your theory is just as speculative as the Watchtower Society's, and as mentioned, it fails to properly take into account the context of Daniel.

The 'tree' in Daniel 4 simply stands for world rulership given by God. It is not God's kingly rule on earth as exemplified by Jerusalem, as the Watchtower Society believes. At the time the tree pictured world rulership that God had given to Nebuchadnezzar, ie, the Babylonian world empire. It is a parallel vision to that of Daniel 2 of the immense image (the head of gold was Nebuchadnezzar, likewise the immense tree was Nebuchadnezzar's world empire at that time).

That 'tree' was chopped down when the 'holy watcher' - an angel - came down and wrote the writing on the wall in Beltashazzar's royal court on the very night the Medes and Persians sacked Babylon. So the tree did not fall in 607 BCE (nor at Jerusalem's destruction in 586 BCE). It was chopped down in 539 BCE.

Nebuchadnezzar is spoken of in scripture as Jehovah's 'servant' and had a rather special relationship with Jehovah that no other gentile ruler has had since. He acknowledged Jehovah's sovereignty after regaining his madness and he received his rulership directly by Jehovah's authority.

The tree (world rulership given by God) was chopped down and the stump branded until Jesus Christ, the one with the legal right, is crowned as earth's new king. At the time the seven times will have passed and the tree will grow and flourish again. It will be world rulership by Christ and the holy ones (Daniel 7).

The 'seven times' is simply a symbolic statement indicating the passing of a long period until the fullness of time is reached for the completion of God's plan in relation to world rulership. It is not 2520 years and cannot be predicted in advance as if it was some mystical, hidden bible code. (Jesus said explicitly that these things are reserved for the Father only and no one knows the day or the hour except the Father.) The 'seven times' began when the Babylonian world empire was 'cut down' in 539 BCE and will end at an unknown future time when Jesus is crowned as earth's new ruling king (not 1914).

Leolaia

yaddayadda....Really? That sounds a lot closer to the Society's teaching on the "seven times" than what an exegesis of Daniel 4 itself would produce. (bit puzzled)

drew sagan

The fate of Nebuchadnezzar, of course, functioning as a timeless parable against pride aimed at any successful "pagan" ruler, including the Seleucids at the time of the final edition of Daniel. Applying it to a particular "kingdom of God" either in Eden or through the Davidic dynasty misses this moral point, which concerns the relationship of human rulers to the ongoing kingdom of God throughout history.

An excellent and percise summary of how eaisly this story should be read.

Daniel 4:1-37, "Seven times"

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