Daniel 4:1-37, "Seven times"

by Son of John 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  ProdigalSon

  Ezekiel the 31st chapter is a good example of how Jehovah likens nations to trees, likening Egypt to a giant cedar that got to be the biggest in the "Garden of God". So yes it is true that there is no scriptural basis to apply the tree in Daniel chapter 4 to God's Kingdom.

  Son of John, I do admire the effort you brothers put forth in trying to make more sense of the 4th chapter of Daniel, and I don't blame you for questioning the Watchtower's absurd doctrine. An Ironic thing is that one of the key scriptures the Society uses to promote 1914 is at Ezekiel 21:26,27. Remember this one? "Remove the turban, lift off the crown...a ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it...and it will become no one's until he comes who has the legal right, and I shall give it to him". The irony is that this prophecy undoubtedly applies to their coming demise.

  The other problem is that it seems that the "seven times" would become 7,000 years according to your spirited interpretation. This however would be the only time in the Bible that I know of that it would apply to a period other than 360 days.

  So I believe that the prophecy may have a future fulfillment during the time of the end, but I also think that it is still "sealed up" until Jehovah deems that it's time to enlighten on these sealed prophecies. Right now I can't even see a way of applying it to the UN-New World Order, as Armageddon will ensure that there is no way that Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom will still "be sure to him" after it's over.

  Agape

  Lou
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  Mad

  Yadda wrote: "The 'tree' in Daniel 4 simply stands for world rulership given by God. It is not God's kingly rule on earth as exemplified by Jerusalem, as the Watchtower Society believes.

  Mad writes: Correct! Rulership was given by God to Babylon, when He allowed it to be conquered by Babylon in 607. The scriptures state the Jews would be captive 70 years. They were released 2 years AFTER babylon fell in 539...in 537 BC (Berfore Christ). 70 years rolls back the calendar to (gasp!) 607 BCE. So nice try- but you fail at the very start, so the rest is at fault!

  At the time the tree pictured world rulership that God had given to Nebuchadnezzar, ie, the Babylonian world empire. It is a parallel vision to that of Daniel 2 of the immense image (the head of gold was Nebuchadnezzar, likewise the immense tree was Nebuchadnezzar's world empire at that time).

  Mad writes: Same date 7 rulership applies there.

  That 'tree' was chopped down when the 'holy watcher' - an angel - came down and wrote the writing on the wall in Beltashazzar's royal court on the very night the Medes and Persians sacked Babylon. So the tree did not fall in 607 BCE (nor at Jerusalem's destruction in 586 BCE). It was chopped down in 539 BCE.

  Mad writes: LOOKS that way- except that, just as you compared with the image of different metals in chapter 2 of Daniel, this tree does NOT simply represent babylon- but the passing of Rulership taken from the Jews, and given to the Gentile nations! So the "chopping down" takes place at the start of Christ's reign (Daniel 2:44). The verification is that, using the chronology that the WTBS and others have used (Each "time"= 360 days Hebrew Calendar/ symbolic of 360 years), takes you in the prophecy to the year Christ arrives on the scene- AND the Jewish Nation was expecting his arrival BECAUSE of this dating!
  Nebuchadnezzar is spoken of in scripture as Jehovah's 'servant' and had a rather special relationship with Jehovah that no other gentile ruler has had since. He acknowledged Jehovah's sovereignty after regaining his madness and he received his rulership directly by Jehovah's authority.
  
  The tree (world rulership given by God) was chopped down and the stump branded until Jesus Christ, the one with the legal right, is crowned as earth's new king. At the time the seven times will have passed and the tree will grow and flourish again. It will be world rulership by Christ and the holy ones (Daniel 7).

  Mad writes: Correct! This "world rulership" was given to the Gentiles....when the Jews were judged evil by the True God!
  The 'seven times' is simply a symbolic statement indicating the passing of a long period until the fullness of time is reached for the completion of God's plan in relation to world rulership. It is not 2520 years and cannot be predicted in advance as if it was some mystical, hidden bible code.

  Mad writes: If it were merely symbolic, the details would be meaningless- and Jesus appearing at the date specified would be of a coincidence only YOU would want to believe!

  (Jesus said explicitly that these things are reserved for the Father only and no one knows the day or the hour except the Father.) The 'seven times' began when the Babylonian world empire was 'cut down' in 539 BCE and will end at an unknown future time when Jesus is crowned as earth's new ruling king (not 1914).

  Mad writes: Day & Hour, true! The year appears to be a different story- although even I as a JW find it hard to swallow that Christ began ruling in 1914. Yet the year IS specified- if you look closer! Maybe it had a DIFFERENT signifigance!

  JWfacts is NOT the WTBS.
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  Doug Mason

  In the SECOND chapter of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar is given a dream of a statue that has a head of gold, followed by parts of lesser materials. He is told the head represents his kingdom, which was to be followed by others.
  
  In the THIRD chapter, Nebuchadnezzar builds just such a statue, but it is gold from head to toe. He thus sees his kingdom lasting forever, and it is he who must be worshipped, on pain of death.
  
  In the FOURTH chapter, Nebuchadnezzar is given an experience that forces him to declare the message he had been given by Daniel when he experienced his first dream -- that "The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory" (Dan 2: 37, NIV).
  
  Following his experience, Nebuchadnezzar finally acknowledges the supremacy of the Most High God:
  
  "At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
  
  "All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?” …
  
  "Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble." (Dan 4: 34 – 37, NIV)
  
  Doug
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  drew sagan

  Funny how when the disciples asked Jesus about his future return he never said:
  
  "... well, you take 607 B.C.E....."
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  heathen

  Funny how when the disciples asked Jesus about his future return he never said:
  
  "... well, you take 607 B.C.E....."

  Maybe not but in Mathew 24:15 it does say ,"let the reader use discernment".
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  George

  Daniel 4

  This chapter describes Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the big tree, which grew great and reached unto heaven and was visible to the end of all the earth. The tree was cut down and banded until seven times passed over it. Verse 22 explains that the tree represents Nebuchadnezzar, who was ruling over the earth. Verses 24 through 26 describe the interpretation of the dream by saying that Nebuchadnezzar would be cut down until seven times had passed over him and then his kingdom would be returned to him. The rest of the chapter describes the fulfillment of the prophecy when it came upon Nebuchadnezzar. This information provides us with a model or typical prophecy.

  The Model

  In the model Nebuchadnezzar was the definite direct object in the account. That definite object took the simple action of being cut down from the subject, God. Thus, God cut down Nebuchadnezzar for a period of seven times. Note that the model describes a specific subject, a definite direct object, and simple action. This prophecy also has a larger fulfillment.

  The Larger Fulfillment

  It is not uncommon for the scriptures to use earthly kings in describing the activities of Satan the devil: the 28th chapter of Ezekiel provides a very good example. Here in Daniel 4 Nebuchadnezzar represents Satan in the larger application. And since there is no one greater than God, he remains God in the greater application of this account. Thus the larger or antitypical fulfillment describes how God cut down Satan's rule over the earth until seven times passed over him. The larger fulfillment of this prophecy and the larger period of seven times (2520 years) both fit the events described in the previous studies. So in the fulfillment of the larger model we find that Satan had rule over the earth until God interposed in 2492 BCE. Satan's rule was cut down for 2520 years until 29 CE when his kingdom was returned to him. This is the meaning of the antitypical fulfillment of Daniel chapter 4. The seven times applies to the time period from 2492 BCE to 29 CE.

  No Model in Scripture Points to 1914

  There is nothing in the Bible that provides a model for applying a period of seven times to the years 607 BCE to 1914 CE. The Witnesses, nevertheless, have made up a model of their own, but it does not match the model in Daniel 4. They say that God cut down his own rule in 607 BCE and started it again in 1914 CE. In their model God (subject) cut down his own rule (reflexive action). The model the Witnesses use does not have a definite direct object. The state of the action is different in their model. They use reflexive action in their model. In the model in Daniel 4 God (subject) cut down (simple action) Nebuchadnezzar (definite object) for seven times. The model in Daniel 4 has a definite direct object. In Daniel 4 the object takes the action from the subject. The model in Daniel 4 uses simple action. Applying a period of seven times to 607 - 1914 does not match the model in Daniel 4. The Witnesses have made up their own unscriptural model, which they base on Luke 21:24 because that scripture uses the word times or seasons. They are using a different period of seven times and claiming that that period applies to the antitypical model in Daniel 4. But their model does not match the model in Daniel 4. The times or seasons mentioned in Luke 21:24 applies to the years from 67 CE to 70 CE when Jerusalem was tread upon by the nations and destroyed. They stretch that brief period of 3 and 1/2 years into a model that extends form 607 BCE until 1914 CE!

  T he Stretch

  In Luke 21, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 Jesus was describing the events that were coming upon Jerusalem within one generation. This was the coming of the Son of man for the destruction of Jerusalem. The Witnesses extend this account into the 20th century by claiming that it fits into their model. They use this same stretching technique when they identify the kings of the North and South in Daniel 11. The stretch is also applied to Daniel 7 and 12. The stretch is again applied to the prophecies in Revelation. They claim that Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem in 96 CE, but the facts show that it was written before the destruction in 64 CE. Many of the prophecies in Revelation apply to the destruction of Jerusalem and that of the city of Rome. By claiming that the Revelation was written after the fall of Jerusalem they wrongly apply the fulfillment of many prophecies to the early 20th century.

  With all this stretching the Witnesses have changed the meaning of the fulfillment of many Bible prophesies to suite their own purposes. When the time frame of Bible prophecy is shifted in this manner the result is such that the true objects of the prophecies in question are ignored and false objects are selected in their place. In their manipulation of prophecy the Witnesses often leave the state of the action the same, but they change the identities of the objects so that they take on different identities. All this is the result of applying a period of 2520 years to the wrong time frame. Consequently, their errors have produced many extraneous results, which have resulted in many unscriptural doctrines and raised serious theological problems for their members.

  The End Result of the Stretch

  The end result of the stretch is that the Witnesses claim there is a remnant of the 144,000 on earth today. Those of the leadership of the society claim to be of this special remaining "priestly" class. By claiming this "special status" they have secured for themselves a rather large following. There is, however, no scriptural reason to assume that there is any remnant of the 144,000 alive in the flesh today, and neither has there been anyone from that class alive on earth for at least the last 19 centuries! The remaining studies will demonstrate the truthfulness of the foregoing statements.

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