Did God ever Exist?

by found-my-way 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • found-my-way
    found-my-way

    Among these charges are lying, theft, and lust at someone other than her husband. She proclaims that she is not a liar. I propose a professional lie detector test. Clearly she should be interested in clearing her good name if innocent. Her husband will no doubt be interested as well. If successful she could be the first person in two thousand years to be proclaimed not a liar. Should she refuse to take the test, I will add the label COWARD to the growing list of character faults.

    FMW, please keep in mind that you are the one who opened this up with your charges against God. If you are found guilty of any of these charges against you, then it will prove that you are completely incapable of judging God. How can a liar choose what's best for others?

    Nice try Perry.

    Did I hit a nerve with my bird comment? Awwww, poor baby...

    I feel sorry for you.

    You're more pathetic than I had orginally thought.... you have my pity.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    X charges God of being unfair.

    Y defends God by charging X of secret moral sin, which would (somehow) (1) make X's judgement on God invalid and (2) make X liable to final judgement by God.

    Y is well-meaning, because he wants X to escape divine judgement by making friends with God (and, of course, not calling him unfair anymore).

    Does the pattern sound familiar?

    That's the dialogue of Job and his friends in a nutshell.

    Whose part are you playing, Perry?

    Your kind of God is that which makes atheists proud. It's the God who should be resisted, would he exist. One that would make the most "immoral" of his enemies more "moral" than him.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Your kind of God is that which makes atheists proud. It's the God who should be resisted, would he exist. One that would make the most "immoral" of his enemies more "moral" than him.

    Narkissos shoots................and he scores!! Narkissos 1, Perry 0

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Terry,

    The score is surely higher than that? Or do own goals not count?

  • Anti-Christ
    Anti-Christ

    Perry, do you want to anwser my question?

  • Fred E Hathaway
    Fred E Hathaway

    to FMW: God must have existed, because you believed in Him once (even if you may not want to now).

  • Perry
    Perry

    That which prevents FMW from admitting that she has ever told even one lie (and thus making her supremely unqualified for God's job) is from the same source that we used to drink from 5 times a week. Most of us imagine that the culprit that facilitated our illusion of righteousness was the WT, but it wasn't. Think. What kept us going as Witnesses? I can't speak for you all, but for me it was imagining myself right with God by sinning less (growing toward perfection), living a clean lifestyle, and hope of a better life in the future. ALL THREE turned out to be complete illusions, though they seemed very real at first. I believe Paul says it best for me in Galatians:

    We know very well that we are not set right with God by rule-keeping... How do we know? We tried it - and we had the best system of rules the world has ever seen! 19 What actually took place is this: I tried keeping rules and working my head off to please God, and it didn't work.

    That's the bottom line for me.... it didn't work. The formula was false.

    FMW calls me pathetic for asking her the kinds of questions that people don't normally ask. Let me show you what is truly pathetic:

    For we have previously charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin, 10 as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, together they have become useless; there is no one who does good, there is not even one. 13 Their throat is an open grave; they deceive with their tongues. Vipers' venom is under their lips. 14 Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and wretchedness are in their paths, 17 and the path of peace they have not known.

    Now, as a witness it was understood that these kinds of statements described everyone else except us right? I mean, we lived in a spiritual paradise right? When we read this we would naturally think about it applying to our neighbors. I know I did ....... probably much the same way FMW now thinks about me even through the denial of her sin. Thet're all illusions from the sin principle activating our minds. What is the response that we get from witnesses when we now show them their bloodguilt and heartlessness? Stop, and read the above verses again with witnesses in mind and see how much of it fits. Isn't that how many now think of them? What changed?

    Are you starting to see what I'm getting at here? As we move our position, (now out of the WT) the target changes. We now levy the guilt at that which we once were. What stays the same though? Of course we stay excluded! This is the sin principle operating in our minds. It is much more powerful that we can psychologically deal with ...... alone. It shoots right at the heart of our survival mechanisms.

    But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

    On our very best day, our good is as filthy rags to God. Why? It's because of the sin principle not because of the good acts. It includes our motives and our desire to self exalt, and to hold up snipets of good as if it can redeem or wash away the bad that we practice. There are many layers of it, and it is deceptive by nature. Our good acts do deliver temporary relief and does have value. It is the wrong direction for identity though, because the basic design of the man/woman is one of being and not one of doing.

    The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord

    Many people cannot fathom why The Lord would permit suffering, not just FMW. There are some things here that can tell us definitely where the answer cannot be found. The primary source that this answer cannot be found is from ourselves. As a finite sinner, a liar, etc. it is impossible to judge the Lord either experientially or morally. Experientially, because his experience is infinitely different than ours, and morally because of the sin principle. This is why faith is absolutely essential. Not because God wants it for some arbitrary reason. It is because it is required as a comunique between our two species. For example, think of children that cannot be given a sharp knife despite their protests. They must take it on faith that we know better as adults because of our "infinite" more experience.... even though they can clearly see it as a superior tool than their toys. If they disobey, they will get punished. But things run much smoother if they take it on faith.

    I've found God's punishment to be a favorite subject among some atheists. So far, no atheist has described a system of laws to me without consequences. From the law of gravity to speed limits, they all have consequences when broken. Otherwise, there would be no law. When the "Law" was brought to the old West (USA) the first thing they did was build a jail. Why? No punishment....No LAW. When cowboys feared the punishment they understood the LAW. Their "wisdom" began when they "feared" the punishment.

    Likewise, atheists have no real wisdom because they have no fear of the Lord. Some atheists like to spend their time judging the Infinite Mind. Now, logically they know that if he does exist, that this is a complete waste of time because unless he reveals something to them, they have about as much chance of accurately judging him as a snowballs chances in hell. In other words, the object of their invective is acknowledged to be infinite, but they know they are finite (some of them). So, they find more fertile fields in just challenging faith in general. Which, I might add is also a complete waste of time because faith implies relationship. When God is living inside the Most Holy compartment of your being, just like he said he would and just like it was pictured in the OT temple, challenges to your faith mean less and less as the relationship grows. Instead of a demon posession, it is a God posession, but one agreeable to our new nature, the new spirit from the Lord when a person is born again.

    Many also promise freedom from abuse from religion. I must admit I almost fell for the I-get-my sense-of-right-and-wrong-from-something-called-social-conditioning. Children are generally told not to go along with what everyone else does but to follow what the teacher says and to do what they were taught and know to be right. But as adults, apparently you must check with social conditions to find out the current feeling of right and wrong. In other words, the social conditioners and corporate marketers have a fast moving chariot that you must check with for the current new light.

    Did God ever exist?

    Why don't you ask Him? It is the only source that you can get an accurate answer from.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Perry I must grant you something, you are well-meaning and very candid...

    You are like a boy explaining to a bunch of old fishermen that they don't know what the sea is because they never went to the only beach you are aware of (and hence call "the sea").

    As so many others you have experienced the tension of moral constraint, and the release which comes when moral contradictions climax into (all sexual overtones intended: Freud would have been a happy man in Texas I guess) the a-moral -- that which you call "grace" but, unbeknownst to you, is also called by thousands of other names, such as nonsense, folly, extasy, crazy love, sheer joy, mad laughter, wild dance, and so on. It's the sudden revelation that "morality" or "law" are not all there is.

    But you have not understood (yet) that there is more to the sea than your beach, however nice it is. Who can tell you otherwise? You won't believe the others' sea is the true one. The one way you could know is go to your beach and sail from there. But instead you stay on the side of the road to point to the place.

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    ...(Perry clears the smoke filled invective from the room with a wave and taps the bar for all the atheists to 'simmer down now')

    Dont flatter yourself Perry, we're laughing at you, not with you......

    Your christian fundie "Fatwas" have about as much real significance as that parrot sh*tting on your shoulder......

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    ...(Perry clears the smoke filled invective from the room with a wave and taps the bar for all the atheists to 'simmer down now')

    Dont flatter yourself Perry, we're laughing at you, not with you......

    Your christian fundie "Fatwas" have about as much real significance as that parrot sh*tting on your shoulder......

    ROTFLMGDMFAO!

    I kneel before you kid-A!

    Nvr

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