I mentioned to my dad about this subject and his response was similar to others. He says that its in the DNA. Its sin on a genetic level and passed on generation to generation. He adds that even doctors know that our bodies are built to live forever and are still baffled to why we grow old. The comment about sin being brought by man and therefore we all have sinned..from romans i think... Just doesn't make sense to me. The ablitity to sin i can see..but not in us genetically. Where in the bible does it say that Jehovah manipulated our genes to have the sin gene in us now?
WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?
by Terry 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Terry
I mentioned to my dad about this subject and his response was similar to others. He says that its in the DNA. Its sin on a genetic level and passed on generation to generation. He adds that even doctors know that our bodies are built to live forever and are still baffled to why we grow old. The comment about sin being brought by man and therefore we all have sinned..from romans i think... Just doesn't make sense to me. The ablitity to sin i can see..but not in us genetically. Where in the bible does it say that Jehovah manipulated our genes to have the sin gene in us now?
No less a personage than Martin Luther himself felt that the entire lynchpin of Christianity rested in the issue of Salavation centering on original sin.
This is the dirty little secret of Christianity. If this product: being saved from sin is demonstrated to be bogus (we aren't born sinful) then, the solution to the problem (Jesus) vanishes into a trumped up bamboozle.
Selling people on a product is part and parcel of salesmanship in general which includes a number of steps of logic which may or may not be false steps.
Think of it as SHAVING CREAM, for example.
How many people purchase special shaving lotions or creams in order to shave off unwanted hair or whiskers?
I personally have NEVER used this product. Why? I just don't see any actual need for a special product when warm water and regular soap or conditioner does the same softening job!
Heck, I've shaved dry before and didn't even nick myself.
Creating a need for a product is half the game.
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RAF
Who is Martin Luther (GOD?/CHRIST?) a know it all?
Christianity? Which one? conservatives or Gnostics (they really don't see the whole thing the same way) but it seems that most of people only know about the conservatives view/belief (there was a time conservatives were killing the Gnostics who did believe in Christ philosophically) that's why the Gnostics view has been forgotten for a long time (but who was right when you think about what Christ means? Gnostics didn't kill the conservatives because they thought that they were wrong in there belief - talking about a reason to kill !!!) ...
But lets skip that … I was about to answer Rayvin but in getting back into the main purpose of this story (to me of course)
What if an engineer builds computer/robot which has a spirit able to make choices by himself which is related to what is important to it or not which is related to its feelings which are related to its personal values that any set up from their own desire/choice related to their experience (because feelings is not only related to personal desire) that’s why personal experience means a lot in the equation.What would be the only way for the engineer to limit the bulls from those robots in giving each one a chance to prove it is worthy for every robots and itself at the same time (since they are supposed to live together), if not giving it a few important notions of love (and hate for instance among other things) by experience (that it will be sensible to or not / accept or reject since it have free will) and having a switch off button nor set a limit on aging?
Now if we are those robots (with a spirit) do we want our free will taken from us? I guess it would be hard to give it up. Nothing would be about our personal choice (and therefore not really our personal feelings too) since it’s not based on “personal” values. Just knowing it would be a spiritual death (no choice even just thinking for ourselves - everything would be programmedthen we would be just tools).
Well according to the bible (that you can believe in or not – your choice) we are in this position. If we can't share the right way to be good for others and ourselves (by repercussion) we can just play a selfish game till we will be switched on off. Since I truly think it’s possible to be happy all together – Ego/Selfisheness putted aside – we just have to understand and apply charity for good – so it’s not as if something impossible is asked here ... it’s just a discipline (which is philosophical and not dictatorial). I mean if you believe in God would you like him to give you freedom or be your dictator?
If you read the bible in the first degree (you God is a dictator)so the writers would have been a bit twisted when talking about God’s love …
I’ve read in this thread that god is responsible for us being how we are and having to live what can be a quiet hard life … Maybe there are people who haven't appreciate a single thing since they've been alive till there death ... but death is not something hard to get (today for instance: get the right pills and fall asleep if you want it smooth - and make sure nobody will find you before it's over - or fly from a 20 floors building - or take a train full speed in your face to make it quick).
Now asking the engineer to switch off anyone since his first bull ... where is the experience which can lead to understanding and where is the mean to get there with free will? it's like asking him to finish the experience before it can have its effect !!!
We will all die (so did Adam and Eve in the story) nobody said (in the story that they are switched off forever as spirits.
This story truly talks about responsibility of the consequences of any choice (whether you have the right idea or not about the consequences) and to be honest what they have done in this story in being naïve (they didn't know about the good and bad - so how can they be responsible for good and for all?) … They were not more than kids at this level (of course since they didn't know about the good and the bad) means responsible of what they did but just that and just because nobody told them that they have to do it absolutely) but are they responsible for Cain for instance? Or for whatever we have done wrong?
Death for Adam and Eve as an eternal condemnation IS UNFAIR so even more for there kids (put it the way you want it stays unfair if it’s for good and for real – They didn’t Know – they were kids which disobey for the very first time in being attracted by something which was blinking (being like God – EGO based) – and it’s not because the babies had lots of toys (the paradise) which was able to satisfy them, that they wouldn’t question anything with time going on (curiosity is just natural / but Ego is related to your personal values - but what do you know about the wrong part of the Ego without experience) a baby is a baby when you have no idea about the good and the bad it is not because mom said you’re going to die if you touch this that you’re not going to be attracted by something which is blinking – so thenwho is to blame ? The one who left something blinking? That sounds logical but the problem here is that what is blinking (the tree) is our capacity to have free will (it’s related to us by nature) THIS TREE WITH IT’S FRUITS IS IN OUR PERSONAL GARDEN. No tree in your personal garden = no choice / no free will … if this tree is not in your personal garden you are a robot.
Again it’s all my opinion of course!!!
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Terry
What if an engineer builds computer/robot which has a spirit able to make choices by himself which is related to what is important to it or not which is related to its feelings which are related to its personal values that any set up from their own desire/choice related to their experience (because feelings is not only related to personal desire) that’s why personal experience means a lot in the equation.
Adam and Eve were never capable of making a moral choice about anything since they did not KNOW GOOD AND EVIL.
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myelaine
dear Terry...
Adam and Eve would have had to have known that God gave them the instruction not to eat from the tree for their own good...He told them they would die. So...even if they had no idea what death was they still should have known what good was.
also what would be the point of earth and making it habitable for mankind if God was going to kill Adm and Eve (before all the children). There would have been no point.
I think alot of questions can be answered if we spend some time thinking about Matthew 20:16...and keep in mind that in the steam of time, zero is a place holder!
love michelle
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VoidEater
He adds that even doctors know that our bodies are built to live forever and are still baffled to why we grow old.
Actually, one approach says that our telomeres get "used up". While not very well understood, it's not accurate to say no one knows why age brings death, and it seems wishful thinking to say our bodies are designed to last forever.
Who was the injured party?
Not really relevent. It's not a civil torte, it's a criminal case.
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Robdar
As stories go, paradise lost is an interesting one. The 4 legged, talking, lying, serpent is a good twist to the plot. The problem with the story, and therefore the doctrine, is that people interpret it literally instead of realizing it for what it is: a Jewish myth.
Even though I am a Christian, I do not believe the story. I have been entertained by it, but do not believe it to be true. I wish other Christians would stop believing it too.
And to the "true believers" on this forum who want tell me I am not a Christian because of my belief, you can take it up with Jesus Christ himself because you are not going to take it up with me. I refuse to argue with you about this.
Robyn
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real one
Robyn says:
And to the "true believers" on this forum who want tell me I am not a Christian because of my belief, you can take it up with Jesus Christ himself because you are not going to take it up with me. I refuse to argue with you about this.
Just a question
why don't you believe this account. As christians i thought wewere suppose to believe the whole Bible.