WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?

by Terry 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • fifi40
    fifi40

    Dear Vinny

    In defense of Terry (and he has no need for my or any others defense, he is well capable of that himself, well researched, well read and a deep thinker) he seeks IMHO only to make others think; he asks only that they take themselves out of their comfort zone and truly test the quality and honesty of their beliefs and reasonings. At your own admission you are not aware of some of the authors that Terry quoted, and therefore you can hardly become a critic of Terry's opinion and comments on these if you are not familiar with them. Rest assured he will have experience and knowledge of their ideas.

    Nobody takes Terrys threads to be gospel truth, but neither do they view him as arrogant or narrow in his view. As you yourself stated he to was once a JW, so he has stood both sides of the fence, and its his experience and subsequent research and search for knowledge that leads to his interesting and sometimes controversial threads and comments.

    I was raised with a belief in God and with a very comforting hope for the future, but what I see around me leads me to question very hard the existence of a God. If you told your child not to eat a chocoloate bar in the fridge, but they did what would be your response to this act? Would yours be a continous punishment, which extended to your grandchildren and beyond? And where does the blame actually lie? Neither Adam or Eve asked to be created and as such to be created with the ability to sin. That was all Gods doing. Can you really explain how a God of love and forgiveness can sit back and watch the evil and horrendous things that befall men knowing that he is the only one capable of bringing these things to an end?

    And what about other religions and religious books? So many are just victims of the circumstance they are born into. They believe because their parents believe. How can God allow there to be so much confusion about what is right? What the true course to him is? If you are born an aetheist, and you could ignore all the conflict and sadness that occurs in the world and still want to believe in a God, it would take you a lifetime exploring all the different faiths that exist to decide which is true. Surely the path to him should be simple and clear and yet, it is not.

    And why does God want worshippers? Why couldnt he be happy with a creation that lived simply and happily? Why the need to put them into a game of Chess with his adversary the devil, as if his word is to be believed, we are all pretty much in the same situation as Job?

    And why the need to buy back our sin/death with the life of his own son? Why did something need to be given for his forgivness or for the redeeming of our chance at eternal life? God shouldnt need to be bought?

    If you look deeper into why so many religions exist, the purposes Religion served in it particular period of time and how it changed with the social changes at any given time you may be shocked at what you learn.

    Dont take for granted teachings you were given as a child and blankets of comfort 'knowledge' that serve to keep you warm and safe without really questioning the honesty, truth and reliability of their fabric.

    All the best to you

    Fi

  • Vinny
    Vinny

    Hello Fifi,

























    and

    "Think again. [This time--use your own intellect] to parse this very real problem of injustice as portrayed in Genesis" (brackets mine).


































































































    He's a big boy.

  • Vinny
    Vinny

    Answering the second part of your comment:















































































































  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Imagine your great grandfather was a billionaire.

    He tells your grandfather that he will give him 500 million dollars if he can make it to age 20 without smoking a cigarette. And if he ever smokes a cigarette after that he will have to relinquish his gift.

    Unfortunately your grandfather smoked a cigarette the day after he turned 20. So your great grand father took the money and stipulated that your grandfather would never inherit any of his money.

    Consequently your grandfather lived his life in poverty and so did your father. You too receieved nothing of that gift nor any of your heirs.

    Is this fair?

  • startingover
    startingover

    I think I'll get some popcorn and wait for "Kiddie-A" to discover he's been challenged. I have a feeling this discussion will go on for a while.

  • Terry
    Terry
    fifi40

    If I ever horrendously murder somebody and leave quarts of blood all over the crime scene I'm going to hire FIFI 40 as my lawyer!! I just know I'll be acquitted!!

  • RAF
    RAF

    Whatever you read is someone else's way of saying something (literal or imaged) ... and for a book like this what you read is something which have been written a long time ago (to be understandable at that time *), and translated, also the translation have been translated etc and etc. Don't you think that you can't just read this book literally? ... You either have to try to read in between the lines (then it makes sense or not) or be inspired (LOL). It's not about fitting in to make it works for you.

    (*) Now you might tell me that this book should be understandable for us now (it is – cause we know a lot about the past – but those before us did not know about now)

    So it's not because you don't see how it is coherent that it is not coherent (reading it is not enough) symbolisms, history, cultures, human nature and and and ... have to be taken into consideration in the understanding where they need to be.

    Biblically talking nobody have to believe the same thing … NOPE … There is a quote for that (ask ABR if he got it in mind). You can even blaspheme again Christ himself – means biblically God himself - it doesn’t matter for what is really important. Now you might see an incoherence here when there is none because God (the NT one = the posterity = Christ) is not self oriented, he putted everybody on the same shelve … The last will be the first / the greatest will be the tiniest (it's a balance that just put everybody on the same level if you really think about it).

    Faith is not about believing in God, it’s not even about believing in an account for being the exact truth (biblically talking the Jews and angels had a particular relationship with God but a lot didn’t have faith they where supposed to know God better than we do) but in what didn’t they have faith? In the wisdom of God about why Not this but That at the moment (to make it short) if you want to live in a paradise (= satisfied wherever/whenever you are) since it’s not worthy to live without free will but moreover love (now we know why JWLand is Depressing). So faith is not about believing in God, faith is about believing/adhering in the wisdom of love (true love = charity – because we can’t love everybody the same way: Parents – Spouse – Kids – Friends – Neighbours - others).

    All the OT is about how it’s not worthy to be protected by a super being in having to follow laws … (since laws do not help for real on the long run without love anyway - and that it can be unfair to just follow a law) the real protection is the love/charity we can have for each others.

    To come back to the main subject: Unless Charity/love takes place where hate and selfishness/Ego lead to chaos. Chaos is the legacy.

    That’s of course only point of view ….Also the bible is not the only book which say that in substance, any book which does is somehow well inspired from God (= wisely talking for and about "everything").

  • Vinny
    Vinny

    Hello Proplog,

    It is late and I have been typing much today. So I hope a quick reply will do for now.

    First of all, if your Great grandfather laid down those specific rules, and your grandfather then broke those rules and subsequently knowingly forfeited his money, then I would not consider that as being unfair at all. Maybe not a happy-time occasion, but fair enough. The money was never really yours to begin with. So what if you live a life of poverty. GET A JOB!

    But more importantly, you actually have the story wrong here.

    The fact is the Creator has ADDED another element entirely to this scenario that you have omitted in your parable. He has in actuality said this: Yes it is true that your forfather has forfeited what could have been yours my son. Unfortunately, you will not receive today what you could have received from him had he followed our agreement. But let me suggest this to you instead; If YOU will do as I ask of you today (unlike your own father before), then I will not only give you that full inheritance and then some, but I will also grant you eternal life in beautiful conditions without any of today's many problems. How does this sound to you?

    You see Proplog, this is what the Creator of all things is offering today. True, he has allowed what Adam lost to affect us now, today. But this is only temporary, so the bible tells us. But more importantly, He has also made arrangements to correct the situation as well as promised EVEN MORE than what is out there for us now, IF we as individuals are willing to simply walk with Him today.


    Now THAT sounds like a pretty fair deal to me.


    In essence Proplog, the full offer is still really there and on the table, only delayed a litle bit, with an explanation to go with it.


    I'd say that sounds more than good to me.


    Goodnight.

  • fifi40
    fifi40

    Terry

    WHO DID YOU KILL??????

    No matter whoever it was we will get you off, there are so many defense pleas we can argue - Crime of passion, of which you have no shortage; Diminished responsibility or we could even argue that as a creation of God's, that you are in NO way responsible, as this is the way you were created, if a machine goes wrong it is the makers responsibility to fix the fault..........In fact the very fact that you put murder and horrendous in the same sentence, displays your underlying feelings toward such and act.

    Urmmmmmmmmm perhaps it would be better if you just dont kill anyone horrendously, I can find you much simpler, non incriminating ways to get rid of someone......

    Fifi

  • fifi40
    fifi40

    Dear Vinny

    Whilst I appreciate and understand your replies there are certain things you should consider.

    Firstly, whilst I like Terry's threads because they are usually thought provoking and interesting I could hardly class him as a friend, we live 1000's of miles apart, have never met and probably never will. I will agree that he can on occassion be dismissive of others peoples belief's and accuse them of being ridiculous, which in his opinion they are. It is my experience of him that his opinion is usually well thought out, reasoned, researched and his life experience has led him to approach things in such a manner. Again I state he has no need of my defense or any others, he is a big boy and is more than capable of vindicating his own argument.

    Secondly, a belief in a God is a deeply personal thing, but one which requires huge commitment to truth on our own part. If you commit to believing something because it is handed down to you from your parents or because it sits more comfortably with you than fact, you put yourself in a minefield, where at any moment an explosion can bring great harm. I understand and totally empathize with the human nature that requires a conviction that this life is not all there is, that there is something better or that God is out there and will restore mankind to his original plan for them. I cannot argue with 100 percent certainity for either side, evolution or God, but I do know for example that there are many criticisms levelled at the text of the book of Genesis and for that matter the rest of the bible. In fact 'the writers' of the book of Genesis used the word elohim in Genesis 1v1 which is actually the plural form or in otherwords Gen1v1 reads 'In the beginning, the GODS created the heavens and the earth'. This can be explained by the very fact that at one time the Jewish religion, was the same as every other religion and was polytheistic, with more than one god. And Yaweh was in fact a storm god and one of many others.

    My argument is not motivated by any desire to prove anybodys faith wrong; I more than most, understand the comfort that faith in some greater being can bring; but for some, and i think Terry is one such person, they wish only to deal with fact and established truth. They are prepared to live life without a comforter and without an eternal hope.

    And despite my own misgivings, I love the life I have been given with a similar appreciation of the many good things around me as yourself.

    Wishing you warm waters wherever you swim

    Fifi

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