WHO IS THE INJURED PARTY? What is wrong with this doctrine?

by Terry 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  Who was the injured party? When? In the Garden of Eden when both Adam and his wife, Eve rebelled against instructions from their landlord, Jehovah.

  "In the Day you eat of it (the fruit) you shall surely die."

  Adam and Eve ate of it. Who was the injured party?

  Under the law of our land a court addresses injury to person or property by seeking to RESTORE to wholeness. In a car accident the damaged car, if repairable, will be repaired and the person who caused the damage must pay. Most often it is the agent (insurance company) who does the actual paying and the driver who caused the harm is penalized by higher rates and a bad driving record.

  In a theft, the court orders the return of the stolen item or restitution by paying a fine or orders the punishment of the thief (which is counted as "paying a debt to society".)

  The victim is damaged and the court views Justice as restoring to wholeness.

  What about the Garden of Eden?

  Was Jehovah injured? He suffered no physical harm; He is a spirit. His fruit was eaten, but; He has "wealth" of an infinite magnitude. Stealing Donald Trump's dental floss wouldn't even come close to injury.

  Adam lived 930 years and died. That is a long life by today's standards. Adam suffered the injury of aging and physical extinction. Eve too aged and died.

  That (aging and dying) is a penalty.

  But--the children and grandchildren of Adam and Eve lived shorter lives and suffered an unlimited injury.

  None of these children EXISTED in the Garden of Eden; they cannot have participated in the ACT of rebellion against Jehovah. If these not-yet-existing children are damaged by the penalty against their parents it can only be because the RETALIATION against Adam and Eve was excessive to the harm against Jehovah.

  If Jehovah put to death ON THE SPOT both Eve and Adam no children would die because they had NEVER LIVED!

  You cannot destroy what does not exist! By the same token, you cannot (with Justice) penalize what does not yet exist or (logically) plan to redeem what does not exist.

  Who is the injured party if not the children of Adam and Eve?

  What possible insult to Jehovah can have taken place in the absence of unborn children (by the billions) which calls for (in justice) the aging and dying of these not existing victims of the rebellion?

  This is where THEOLOGY seeks to step in and explain (apology) how this is not only justice but LOVE on the part of Jehovah.

  What is wrong with the Doctrine of the Fall of Man (as a group) is making it a GROUP in the first place.

  Further, an impossible mechanism is invented for this purpose: THE TRANSMISSION OF SIN by being born!!

  SIN is a personal failure. An archer aims for the target and misses. The failure is the "sin" of missing the mark that was aimed at.

  An unborn child cannot be born a bad archer!

  You can thank the church fathers for this ludicrous explanation.

  JUSTICE restores to wholenss.

  Somebody explain how Jehovah was INJURED by unborn children and you will succeed in explaining why he holds them responsible for acts committed when they were not present and took no part in any conspiracy to commit.

  Hint: YOU CANNOT.

  What is wrong with this doctrine is that it makes God out to be a fiend, a sadist and a brute.

  It is like the sociopath who injures children for the purpose of rescuing them and appearing a hero! (Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome.)
• 

  Terry

  By the time she was 8 years old, J.B. had been hospitalized 200 times and had undergone more than 40 operations, including the removal of most of her intestines.

  K.C., a 2-year-old boy, was hospitalized more than 20 times due to complications from asthma, severe pneumonia, mysterious infections, and sudden fevers. His doctors were baffled and unable to determine the cause of these illnesses.

  What do these seemingly unrelated cases have in common? They were the result of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome (MBPS), or Factitious Disorder by Proxy, as it's listed in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (Fourth Edition, Text Revision, also known as DSM-IV-TR).

  This relatively uncommon condition involves the exaggeration or fabrication of illnesses or symptoms by a primary caretaker. One of the most harmful forms of child abuse, Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome was named after Baron von Munchausen, an eighteenth-century German dignitary known for telling outlandish stories.

  J.B.'s medical history was traced to her mother, who manufactured her daughter's illnesses. Similarly, when K.C. was thought to have AIDS, he eventually complained to his mother's friend that his thigh was sore because "Mommy gave me shots" (indicating that the mother was giving her son something to cause his symptoms).

  What Is Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome?

  In MBPS, an individual - usually a mother - deliberately makes another person (most often his or her own preschool child) sick or convinces others that the person is sick. The parent or caregiver misleads others into thinking that the child has medical problems by lying and reporting fictitious episodes. He or she may exaggerate, fabricate, or induce symptoms. As a result, doctors usually order tests, try different types of medications, and may even hospitalize the child or perform surgery to determine the cause.

  Typically, the perpetrator feels satisfied when he or she has the attention and sympathy of doctors, nurses, and others who come into contact with him or her and the child. Some experts believe that it isn't just the attention that's gained from the "illness" of the child that drives this behavior, but there is satisfaction gained by the perpetrator in being able to deceive individuals that they consider to be more important and powerful than themselves.

  Because the parent or caregiver appears to be so caring and attentive, often no one suspects any wrongdoing. A perplexing aspect of the syndrome is the ability of the parent or caregiver to fool and manipulate doctors. Frequently, the perpetrator is familiar with the medical profession and is very good at fooling the doctors. Even the most experienced doctors can miss the meaning of the inconsistencies in the child's symptoms. It's not unusual for medical personnel to overlook the possibility of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome because it goes against the belief that a parent or caregiver would never deliberately hurt his or her child.

  Children who are subject to Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome are typically preschool age, although there have been reported cases in children up to 16 years old. There are equal numbers of boys and girls, however, 98% of the perpetrators are female. Diagnosis of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome is very difficult, but would involve some of the following:

  • a child who has multiple medical problems that don't respond to treatment or that follow a persistent and puzzling course
  • physical or laboratory findings that are highly unusual, don't correspond with the child's medical history, or are physically or clinically impossible
  • short-term symptoms that tend to stop when the perpetrator isn't around
  • a parent or caregiver who isn't reassured by "good news" when test results find no medical problems, but continues to believe that the child is ill
  • a parent or caregiver who appears to be medically knowledgeable or fascinated with medical details or appears to enjoy the hospital environment
  • a parent or caregiver who's unusually calm in the face of serious difficulties with the child's health
  • a parent or caregiver who's highly supportive and encouraging of the doctor, or one who is angry and demands further intervention, more procedures, second opinions, or transfers to more sophisticated facilities
• 

  IP_SEC

  god=(Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome.)

  that is funny, true, and profound all at the same time.
• 

  Balsam

  That is humorous Terry. I don't know if you've ever read any books by Rabbi Harold Kushner "How Good Do We Have to Be?"

  Well he has always been disturbed by the story of Adam and Eve too and he presents a different story based on the human evolution of man. I haven't finished reading it but I like his perspective of the age old story that and he comments that the story was changed over the centuries before it was written down.

  Ruth
• 

  Carmel

  Sure attests to the power of myth. It's still spinning in the minds of those that reject their literal understanding...

  carm
• 

  Gopher

  Further, an impossible mechanism is invented for this purpose: THE TRANSMISSION OF SIN by being born!!SIN is a personal failure. An archer aims for the target and misses. The failure is the "sin" of missing the mark that was aimed at.An unborn child cannot be born a bad archer!You can thank the church fathers for this ludicrous explanation

  But, um, don't you know that if you dent a cake pan, that it becomes IMPOSSIBLE for future cakes to be perfect?

  Someone left the cake out in the rain. I don't think that I can take it, it took so long to bake it, and I'll never have the recipe again, oh no!
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  Anti-Christ

  Terry, what little faith you have don't you know God is a mystery? I find it sad tha parents still teach the Adam and Eve myth to children. I beleive it makes people fell guilty of being born which I think is one of many reasons why so many people don't have much self esteem.
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  Anti-Christ

  By the way terry I love your posts and topics
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  edmond dantes

  Terry, that was brilliantly put and reinforces my belief that the bible is a work inspired my men in their effort to explain the unknown.Mankind has always applied human attributes to the creator because we are short of any real evidence of who,why,and what.

  The Brookyln boys have just continued it with their crazy writings and imaginings.If only the rank and file would step back and think about their beliefs,they might just see some common sense.But we have all been fooled at one time or another I suppose.
• 

  Terry

  But, um, don't you know that if you dent a cake pan, that it becomes IMPOSSIBLE for future cakes to be perfect?

  Fallacy. The analogy doesn't stand. A cake pan dent is physical. Sin isn't physical. That is where apologists try to slip one in on us unaware.

  Sin requires that the guilty party FAIL. This failure cannot justifiably be BEYOND the possible prevention of said sinner, otherwise, it is not attributable to them as a moral misdeed. If you declare to a village of midgets that being under 6 feet tall is a crime punishable by death you can convict them and execute them, of course. But, you do not, in the process hold the law or the legislature out as a paragon of virture, intelligence or admiration in so doing.

  Stepping in at the public execution of midgets and stopping their deaths does not, by the same token, make you--(the framer of law)--a hero!

  The purpose of REDEMPTION THEOLOGY is to pretend two things simultaneously which are not factual.

  1.Humanity deserves death.

  2.God, by holding out a reprieve, is offering UNdeserved kindness (since it is God who shaped this ludicrous penalty in the first place by attributing guilt to parties who did not yet exist.)

  The very basis of New Testament explanations for the person and mission of Jesus is a Paul-induced coma of faulty logic and apologia which has infected Western mindset for a couple of millennia. It DOES NOT stand up to scrutiny!

  Did you know that God GAVE his only begotten son?

  Yes, but God got him back.

  Did you know Jesus died for your sins?

  Jesus came back to life.

  It is all radical self-inforced litany of ill-considered myth we've all been sold at birth.

  We are only WORTHLESS by failure to exert our worth by buying the story of our "fallen" nature.

  You cannot be saved from a crime you did not commit by the person who falsely accuses you of the crime!!