Do you agree that, if there are errors in the bible, then it's all wrong?

by JH 59 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry
    I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed bwisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects cunderstood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

    And the solution for Joseph Smith was the same solution many before him produced: YET MORE SCRIPTURES!

    The same process, ironically enough, can be witnessed in the writings of Joseph Smith. The original writings (poor grammer, faulty rural syntax, etc.) has been "cleaned up" and prettified by those who came after him.

    And the beat goes on.......

  • Terry
    Terry
    If he can't deliver a clearer more understandable book than the Bible then I have doubts about his existance.

    Pithy, pungent and particularly poignant and persuasive!

  • Terry
    Terry
    I can only wish I had first read something like that in 1955.

    Oh my yessss! If only...if only....if only.

    But, this is the dirty little secret of Christianity.

    It is not unlike people who refuse to go to the doctor lest they be told they have a cancer.

    Out of sight; out of mind. Wish it away. Pretend. Ignore the awful and the awful won't exist.

    Dishonest as dishonest can be!

    Yet--I never even knew there was controversy WITHIN the Christian scholarly community which had existed for centuries!!

  • 5go
    5go

    Both Darwin and the Bible got important things wrong: but they got enough important things right that their contributions were a genuine advance for humanity. Darwin's theory is being reworked by modern evolutionists even as we speak, just as a fine old stately home might be updated with indoor plumbing and seismic retrofitting. Jewish and Christian theology have been reworked for the same reasons since the ink on the original manuscripts was drying.

    Darwin never claimed divine influnce. Not only does the bible claim it but then it claims it is the infoulable word of god.

    Which modern science proved wrong and you admit it's wrong. So why bother with it. Yeah it's got some advice for getting along. So does modern thinking.

  • Handsome Dan
    Handsome Dan

    I came across this web site awhile back and I thought it had some thought provoking information. It is obviously written by a group of atheists

    who wanted to bring to light what all Christian faiths base their religious beliefs on and probablly why some devout Christians eventually turn to atheism.

    If you read their analysis of what the bible says with an open mind it can be very thought provoking material. I found most of the reading to be both mind expanding and humorous for a lot of

    it, your mileage may vary !

    After reading some of the material perhaps you can leave some of your impressions and thoughts and perhaps start an open discussion on its content. http://www.evilbible.com

  • 5go
    5go
    If you find any error in the bible, will it take away the notion that killing is wrong, or stealing is wrong,

    How about rape being OK if it's in a time of war or you marry your victim.

    Killing has always been OK if it is god's bidding. If fact he commanded to smash their enemies babies into the rocks.

    Stealing as long as it is in war and god gets his cut.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Actually Terry that was not JS 'solution' not by along shot but I don't wish to derail this important topic with a potential debate about the LDS though I will happily tackle that should anyone be interested enough to start a thread. PanicAttack - I'll happily point out strong points of the LDS position and its weak points if you wish but not here - though just for balance people who wish to attack the LDS have to concide that at least we do critique our own stuff and if we didn't someone would be up in arms about that as well - 'tis a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

    Since we can't agree on the bible as a christian body maybe it doesn't matter whether it is right or wrong in a broad sense because its failings are magnified by manmade churches and individual interpretations.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    The collection of books cover so many avenues of life with such vagueness, and because the
    original languages have changed, the Bible can be used as absolute proof of so many
    different things that contradict. It can't all be wrong. Some of the people in it may have really done what
    was said about them. There are moral lessons in it, but they are the reflections of men. Still, the
    reflections of men can teach us lots.

    I posted this many months ago about the bible-

    I believe that Jesus was a real historical man, but many experts suggest things similar to THE DA VINCI CODE, that we only know what
    was passed on, but unlike that book, they think he was JUST A MAN. It is possible that the Gospels were written to make him the Messiah.
    Matthew's Gospel addresses how to make him born in a certain place, but be from another. The other gospels either offer a different
    beginning explanation or they just skip it. The same with other "prophecies." The writers deliberately said things happened as fulfillment.
    Perhaps Jesus was an expert on Jewish scriptures who said great wise things, rode a donkey to Jerusalem, proclaimed himself [son of] God.
    Do we need 4 Gospels that are almost but not quite in harmony? What of other gospels that may have been written that didn't line up with the
    other 4? Was Paul a guy like Joseph Rutherford or Jim Baker, or was he actually contacted by Christ?

    If the first century through third century church re-wrote and edited, could we have a fanciful story that many believe as true. Virtually none
    of the scholars accepts the prophecy of the Old Testament. They think most [or all] was written after the fact. What if the gospels were not
    all written until everyone got their story straight- why wouldn't they be more in harmony if they were true?

    I don't think the laws of the OT are from a God. They are from the priests and leaders, written mostly near and after the Babylonian captivity.
    The priests gained credibility for YHWH when Cyrus allowed them to go back and rebuild the temple with his blessings. Other Hebrews said
    that maybe these guys are right. Then they needed their laws to control the people. Complicated laws, they made it up to suit themselves.
    Did ANYONE ever FULLY OBEY those laws? I doubt it. The laws of the OT are not from a loving God- true.

    Jesus really existed and that he got a lot of people excited enough to start a new religion because the priests were losing their grip at that time.
    There were tons of Messiahs around the area. Most were discovered to be false. Jesus died, others made him what he is.

    ALL THAT I SAY, I KINDA SORTA BELIEVE. I don't really know either, perhaps the fundamental Christians are right.

    I added a thought in another thread that many kings were written of as sons of God. After their passing the same stories may have
    been changed to reflect the current king or some stories may have been written of a promised "better" king. Somewhere along the
    road, those stories just dropped the name of the king, and became messiah prophecies. Scholars are certain that all Bible prophecies of the OT were written after the events they prophesied. Most of the things Jesus was said to fulfill were not prophecies in the sense that they promised that one-and-the-same man, a son-of-God would fulfill them.
    Jesus' words about the destruction of Jerusalem were most likely written afterward, just to prove his prophetic ability, but were never
    intended to have to foretell a greater fulfillment.

    Could the Bible be God's word? If it is, He's allowed it to be totally misused. Is that the test? If it is, it's unfair and cruel.

  • Paisley
    Paisley

    I consider it a book written solely by men, with some useful information, some useful teachings, some nonsense. Definitely not "inspired by God."

  • Borgia
    Borgia

    Below I provide a table of reasons why a certain book of the NT is authentic. In WT speak this also means that it should be part of the canon which also means it is inspired scripture. This info is taken from Si-book.

    ABLE FRAME=BOX CELLSPACING=0 COLS=4 RULES=GROUPS BORDER=1>

    BookIdentificationExampleReason for canonicityMatthewOverwhelming evidence early churchPapias of Hierapolis (early second century C.E.) from the calm appeal as to a settled authorityfrom the absence of all hints of doubtMarktradition of Papias, Origen, and Tertullianancient manuscripts, such as the Sinaitic and the Vatican No. 1209fourth-century scholars Eusebius and Jerome are in agreement that the authentic record closes with the words Lukeancient authorities Muratorian Fragment (c. 170 C.E.) shows evidence of Paul’s influence (i.e. Lord's supper account)Pointing to actual fulfillment of prophecyHe quotes Jesus’ inspired testimony As a scholar (MD/GP) we can be sure he did not leave one stone unturned to assemble an accurate accountJohnChurch fatherClement of Alexandria (2nd Century )Papyrus Rylands 457 (P52) (ca 150 C.E.)Internal evidenceEusebius (c. 260-342 C.E.) quotes Irenaeus as sayingKenyon: circulation close to original proves traditionActsActs 1 and last chapter of luke equalMichigan No. 1571 (P38) Chester Beatty No. 1 (P45) Difference in style of speech = actual record no fictionThe way a ship is steeredTemple of artemis in EphesusRomansIntroductionPeter uses similar expressionsQuotes by Clement of Rome (<98 CE)Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46) (3rd Cent)1 Cortint.Introductionit is said that First Corinthians is alluded to and quoted at least six times in a letter from Rome to Corinth dated about 95 C.E. and called First Clementdirectly quoted by Justin Martyr2 CorinthIntroductionSecond Corinthians has always been reckoned along with First Corinthians and the other Pauline epistles as an authentic part of the Bible canonGalatiansIntroductionIt is referred to by name in the writings of IrenaeusChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46)it is entirely in harmony with the other Greek Scripture writings and also with the Hebrew ScripturesEphesiansIntroductionIrenaeus attributes certain text to PaulEusebius, another authority on early Christian history (c. 260-342 C.E.), includes Ephesians in the Bible canonQuotes from early churchfathers makes it part of biblical canonPhilippiansIntroductionPolycarp (69?-155? C.E.) mentioned Paulcited in the Muratorian Fragment of the second century C.Equoted as from Paul by IgnatiusChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46)ColossiansIntroductionChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46)1.ThessaloniansIntroductionThe book is internally harmonious with the rest of the inspired WordMentioned in Muratorian FragmentChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46)2.ThessaloniansIntroductionquoted by Irenaeus Allusions made by Justin MartyrThough it is now missing from the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46), it was almost certainly contained in the first two of seven leaves that are missing after First Thessalonians1.TimothyIntroductionPolycarp (69?-155? C.E.) mentioned Paulstrong evidence from the early church2.TimothyIntroductionIt was recognized and used by PolycarpTitusIntroductionThe style of writing is similarIrenaeus and Origen both quote from TitusJohn Rylands Library P32 Codex Leaf (3rd Cent.)PhilemonIntroductionHe was acknowledged as such by Origen and TertullianMuratorian Fragment of the second century C.E.HebrewsInternal evidencePlace: Italy & associated with Timothy = PaulHe was acknowledged as such by Origen and Tertullianthe doctrine is typical of PaulChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46) There is no substantial evidence, external or internal, in favor of any claimant to the authorship of this epistle except Paulthe contents of Hebrews prove that it is “inspired of GodIt constantly magnifies Jehovah’s Word and his nameJamesIntroductionVatican No. 1209A deep inner harmony with the rest of the inspired Scriptures is very evident widely quoted by early ecclesiastical writers1.PeterIntroduction Irenaeus names Peter as writerIrenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Tertullian all quote the letterIgnatius, Hermas, and Barnabas, of the early second century, all make references to itcompletely in harmony with the rest of the inspired Scriptures 2.PeterIntroductionIts canonicity has also been disputed on the grounds that it “is poorly attested in the Fathersregarded as part of the Bible catalog by a number of authorities prior to the Third Council of Carthage1.JohnIntroductionIrenaeus, Polycarp, and PapiasMuratorian Fragment 2.JohnOlder man = John.From their general similarity, we may conjecture... McClintock & strongquoted by Irenaeusaccepted by Clement of AlexandriaMuratorian Fragment3.JohnOlder man = John.See 2.JohnJudeIntroductionMuratorian FragmentClement of Alexandria (second century C.E.) accepted it as canonicalRevelationHe must be the apostle JohnPapias is said to have held the book to be of apostolic originThere is no doubt that it belongs with the other inspired ScripturesIrenaeus speaks explicitly of the apostle John as the writer

    MuratorianIrenaeus,ClementTertullian,
    Fragment,AsiaAlexandria
    Italy
    Approximate
    Date C.E.170180190207
    MatthewAAAA
    MarkAAAA
    LukeAAAA
    JohnAAAA
    ActsAAAA
    RomansAAAA
    1 CorinthiansAAAA
    2 CorinthiansAAAA
    GalatiansAAAA
    EphesiansAAAA
    PhilippiansAAAA
    ColossiansAAAA
    1 ThessaloniansAAAA
    2 ThessaloniansAAAA
    1 TimothyAAAA
    2 TimothyAAAA
    TitusAAAA
    PhilemonAA
    HebrewsDDADA
    James?
    1 PeterA?AAA
    2 PeterD?A
    1 JohnAADAA
    2 JohnAADA
    3 JohnA?
    JudeA
    RevelationAAAA
    A - Accepted without query as Scriptural and canonical
    D - Doubted in certain quarters
    DA - Doubted in certain quarters, but cataloger accepted it as
    Scriptural and canonical
    ? - Scholars uncertain of the reading of the text or how a
    book mentioned is viewed
    - A blank space indicates that the book was not used or
    mentioned by that authority

    So, what real answer can the WTS provide to support 1) authencity, 2) canonicity, 3) inspiration of God?
    I could come up with a book...say.....the history of the brittisch kings written by Geoffrey of Monmouth and apply the same arguments as have been supplied for ....say....Acts. Does that make it a more truthfull account than homer's Ilias or Odyssee? Or the bible as a whole?
    Si-book excells in exlpoiting the following line of reason: a snippet, a detail, a name, a location, a flower is truthfully depicted. Therefore the whole book is trustworthy thus inspired......

    O....one more feature: all is larded with expressions like: overwhelming evidence, testimony, etc, were there is only secondary or tertiary allusions offered. interesting, no?

    Cheers

    Borgia

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