Did Judas Kiss Jesus to identify him or to BETRAY him? All comments welcome

by needproof 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    needproof,

    I'm not so sure those narratives were meant to describe actual events in the first place, so I generally don't expect too much historical likeliness from them. But in this particular case I don't think it is that narratively farfetched, as greendawn pointed out. A big city, festival time, thousands of pilgrims, the leader of one particular group would hardly be known by face from many people (no picture on the newspapers or on TV).

    However, that the (narratively credible imo) sign of identification should be a kiss from a close disciple is a strong symbol, almost a literary cliché: see for instance Joab in 2 Samuel 20:9, with a similar greeting of deception. Or, outside the Bible, the murder of Galba by Otho in Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, Otho, 6:2f:

    Accordingly, when the day was set, after admonishing his confederates to await him in the Forum at the golden mile-post hard by the temple of Saturn, he called upon Galba in the morning and was welcomed as usual with a kiss. He also attended the emperor as he was offering sacrifice, and heard the predictions of the soothsayer. Then a freedman announced that the architects had come, which was the signal agreed on, and going off as if to inspect a house which was for sale, he rushed from the Palace by a back door and hastened to the appointed place. Others say that he feigned an attack of fever and asked those who stood near him to give that excuse, in case he should be missed. Then hurriedly entering a closed sedan, such as women use, he hurried to the camp, but got out when the bearers' strength flagged, and started to run. His shoe came untied and he stopped, whereupon without delay he was at once taken up on the shoulders of his companions and hailed as emperor. In this way he arrived at headquarters, amid acclamations and drawn swords, while everyone whom he met fell in, just as though he were an accomplice and a participator in the plot. He then sent emissaries to kill Galba and Piso, and made no further promises in the assembly to win the loyalty of the soldiers than to declare that he would have that — and only that — which they should leave to him.

    It's interesting that earlier Philo of Alexandria makes a development about the false kiss in Who is the Heir of Divine Things, 40-44:

    But who Meshech is, and who her son is, must be examined in no superficial manner. Now the interpretation of the name Meshech is, "out of a kiss;" but a kiss differs from loving; for the one exhibits usually a discovery of souls united together by good-will, but the other intimates only a bare and superficial salutation when some necessity has brought the two parties to the same place. For as the meaning "to stoop" (kyptein) is not contained in (anakyptein) "to lift up the head," nor "to drink" (pinoµ) in, "to absorb" (katapinoµ), nor "a horse" (hippos) in the word (marsippos) "a bag," so also "to love" (philein) is not necessarily contained in "to kiss" (kataphilein); since men yielding to the bitter necessities of life offer this salutation to numbers of their enemies. But what that salutation is which consists of a kiss, but not of sincere friendship for us, I will explain without any reservation or concealment. It is, forsooth, that life which exists in union with the external senses, which is called Meshech, being completely secured and defended, which there is no one who does not love, which men in general look upon as their mistress, but which virtuous men consider their handmaid, not a foreign slave or one bought with a price, but born in the house, and in some sense, a fellow citizen with themselves. Well, one class of these men have learnt to kiss this, not to love it; but the other class have learnt to love it to excess, and to think it an object of desire above all things. But Laban, the hater of virtue, will neither be able to kiss the virtues which are assigned to the man who is inclined to the practice of virtue, but, making his own life to depend on hypocrisy and false pretenses, he, as if indignant, for he is not in reality affected, says, "I was not accounted worthy to kiss my children and my Daughters;" speaking very naturally and decorously, for we have all been taught to hate irony irreconcileably. Do thou, therefore, love the virtues, and embrace them with thy soul, and then you will be not at all desirous to kiss, which is but the false money of friendship; --"For have they not yet any part or inheritance in thy house? have they not been reckoned as aliens before thee? and has not thou sold them and devoured the Money?" so that you could neither at any subsequent time recover it, after having devoured the price of their safety and their ransom. Do you pretend, therefore, to wish to kiss, or else to wage endless war against all the judges? But Aaron will not kiss Moses, though he will love him with the genuine affection of his heart. "For," says the scripture, "he loved him, and they embraced one Another

    This is also to be considered against the background of the liturgical practice of "holy kiss" in the Hellenistic churches (1 Thessalonians 5:26 etc.).

  • needproof
    needproof

    I'm just pushing this topic bttt. Thank you for all your comments, I can't comment on them just yet because I am too busy but I will reply this evening.

  • Rooster
    Rooster

    ***

    Rbi8Matthew26:48-56***

    48

    Now his betrayer had given them a sign, saying: "Whoever it is I kiss, this is he; take him into custody." 49 And going straight up to Jesus he said: "Good day, Rabbi!" and kissed him very tenderly. 50 But Jesus said to him: "Fellow, for what purpose are you present?" Then they came forward and laid hands on Jesus and took him into custody. 51 But, look! one of those with Jesus reached out his hand and drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels? 54 In that case, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that it must take place this way?" 55 In that hour Jesus said to the crowds: "Have YOU come out with swords and clubs as against a robber to arrest me? Day after day I used to sit in the temple teaching, and yet YOU did not take me into custody. 56 But all this has taken place for the scriptures of the prophets to be fulfilled." Then all the disciples abandoned him and fled.
  • LovesDubs
    LovesDubs

    Jesus had already sent him packing from the last supper telling him to go do what he had to do so there werent any surprises from Jesus when he kissed him. I doubt the other disciples knew what was going to happen or they probably would have tried to stop Judas. And it was "prophesied" that he would be betrayed and "Gods will" and all that so Jesus himself could have stopped it but of course he didnt call his myriads of angels to rip Judas a new one. One kiss, one ID, one betrayal....the not so holy trinity.

    No wonder the dude killed himself.

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    Most of how I'd reply has already been said:

    I think the kiss was to both to complete the betrayal of Jesus and to identify him - Judas had already betrayed him - the cash transaction was complete but he still had to turn him over to the authorities, his side of the transaction. Jerusalem was big, it was Passover so lots of strangers etc etc.

    When I read the accounts, I wonder if the theory that Judas wanted to force Jesus' hand is the true one rather than the 'Judas was a really bad, dishonest guy who had a grudge against Jesus' theory

    Look at how Jesus said to him at the last supper "Go do what you have to do" - perhaps Judas saw this as Jesus' approval of him putting him in a position where he would be able to show his power? If this is the case then identifying Jesus using the standard greeting kiss of a friend would not seem unusual - maybe Judas thought it would be a sign to Jesus to go ahead with his takeover of power - but it didn't work out like that which is why Judas reacted by returning the money and killing himself. Things just didden happen as he expected.

    I'd love to know exactly what Judas had agreed with the chief priests because I suspect he's not as bad as he's been portrayed - misguided maybe but his heart was in the right place.

  • needproof
    needproof

    Thank you all for your answers!

    You all raise some very interesting points.

    Can anybody clear up where the garden of Gethsemani was located? I thought that it was outside of Jerusalem - which is the reason why I thought Jesus would be easier to spot.

    The point about no Romans coming for Jesus is very clever, something which I had not thought about in the past. Thanks for pointing that out Gordy

    AvidBibleReader brought out an excellent point about Jesus already been betrayed. I was thinking that this kiss WAS the betrayal.

    The posters such as Crumpet and Narkisson brought out superb points about no pictures being available of Jesus, not like today where his face would be plastered all over the news!

    Narkissos, well researched. The mafia have a term 'kiss of death', I wonder if this is related?

    Sad Emo and luvsdubs, I agree with you. Do you think Judas could not escape his destiny that God created for him?

    And finally, my reason behind this thread......

    I wanted to know more about this event and see it from other perspectives. This board is a wealth of information and you people are intelligent people. Thank you for showing this in different lights.

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    Gethsemani was situated just outside the city wall - the historically accepted site is on the hillside facing the now bricked-up gate which led into the Temple (Golden gate?).

    Do you think Judas could not escape his destiny that God created for him?

    oooohhhh a predestination question lol!!!

    Do you think God did create his destiny or is it better to say that God with His perspective of all time knew what Judas was going to do but didn't actually destine him do it?

    If God destined Judas to betray Jesus then he was doing God's will - so would he be punished for it?

  • Scully
    Scully

    I've asked people before why Judas gets such a bad rap. It was necessary for someone to betray Jesus in order for scripture to be fulfilled, and ultimately in order for Jesus to become the Ransom.

    Judas was helping Jesus achieve his destiny, was he not? He was part of God's plan (prophecy) to carry out God's will for saving mankind. If anything, people who believe this account should not be bad-mouthing Judas, but celebrating what he accomplished, for doing what Jesus recognized to be part of the fulfillment of God's prophecy.

    Without the betrayal by Judas, there would have been no Ransom and no Salvation.

    *sits back with popcorn waiting to watch people wrapping their minds around the concept*

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    Scully, I do remember back in my RC days debating this with the curate. It was difficult for him to answer because RCs don't teach predestination.

    I asked him "So did God have a plan B then?"

    Maybe I'll go back one day and start a campaign to get Judas canonised

  • needproof
    needproof

    Ok,

    The predestination issue comes up again! This whole thing could have been avoided if God did not create the snake.

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