by Perry 156 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Perry
If atheism works for you... more power to you. But make no mistake, any "Christian" who judges himself as superior to you in anyway is not a Christian. He's a religionist. Just another of the many agencies that humans employ to justify themselves.
Well said!
Like the thread.
My view:
atheism is not dangerous, but can for weaker persons maybe be a unacceptable empyness in their desire to have a deeper purpose in life.
theism can be dangerous for the human race because it can block the will to discover, to increase knowledge and solve problems.
the 'it was god's will" idea can be dangerous for an individual to be to acceptable, but maybe will increase happyness
of course there is a lot of bad done in the name of religion. Difference in religion causes difference in people, which does gennerally more bad then good.
DB
Perry,
But make no mistake, any "Christian" who judges himself as superior to you in anyway is not a Christian. He's a religionist.
Hillary-Step,
Who are you to judge God so that I should follow your misdirection and judge Him as you tempt me to do? He is infinite in all respects. You are but a vapor. Have you ever denied a young child a sharp steak knife at the dinner table and gave him a butter knife instead? Here you pronounce the same kind of object both good and bad. Good for you because of your greater ability, agility and carefulness and bad for the toddler because of his lack of such qualities.
...and which are you Perry?
I quote this just to illustrate how easy it is for moral blindness to ensue when one allows an unseen force in the sky to dictate what is right and what is wrong. Cognitive dissonance then becomes our master.
I presume that you hold to the theological view that God institutes moral laws only when they begin to harm mankind? For example, Cain sleeping with his sisters was not sinful due to the fact that they were closer to perfection and subsequently no harm physical would result. The Israelites committed genocide and the ultimate ethnic cleanse in the land of Caanan, even killing babies as an act of 'loyal love' to God as the Psalms suggest, because their existence would have contaminated mankind. Murder is okay when the murdered are 'apostates'. Rape and slavery fine when God directs it to be so. Broad and spacious the road to destruction, and those destroyed are executed for not believing what God knows to be right thinking. Theological evolution?
These types of behaviors are different from the evolutionary imperative in one important way. They were perpetrated by people who would have suggested that an evolutionary imperitive plays false to the love that is at the centre of the heart of their God.
HS
hillary-step wrote:
What many religionists, especially of the Christian variety, seem unable to comprehend, is that atheists, agnostics and non-Christians do not view themselves as totally depraved and yet seem to be able tofulfil the Christian ethic to 'not judge others' with a far greater ease than do many Christians, including Perry!
Hillary-Step,
Who are you to judge God so that I should follow your misdirection and judge Him as you tempt me to do? He is infinite in all respects. You are but a vapor. Have you ever denied a young child a sharp steak knife at the dinner table and gave him a butter knife instead? Here you pronounce the same kind of object both good and bad. Good for you because of your greater ability, agility and carefulness and bad for the toddler because of his lack of such qualities.
...and which are you Perry?
I quote this just to illustrate how easy it is for moral blindness to ensue when one allows an unseen force in the sky to dictate what is right and what is wrong. Cognitive dissonance then becomes our master.
Hillary_Step. You are your own best example of hypocrisy as illustrated by your own words above. Did you think that God was going to judge you by His standards? If you did, you're mistaken. Every day you continue to exist, every post you make, you are building your own legal case against yourself. He wouldn't be much of a loving God if he tried you by a "unseen force in the sky" as you misrepresent Christ and his message would he? You still don't get that Christ "didn't come to condemn the world, he came to save it". You are judged by your own standards you erect for yourself. It's not you aginst God. It's you against yourself, silly. You are a living dychotomy.
That is why Christ said that "you who teach do not lie, do you lie? You who teach do not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You are guilty of all of these things and much more. Further, you approve of punishment of the same crimes that you yourself do, therefore condemning yourself before your neighbors and God and justifying his wrath..... likely in similar measure that you mete out. Yet, you refuse to see the obvious that others who have gone before you see. That is why Christ said that the man who seeks to save his life will lose it and the man that loses his life will find it.
Can a man be tried twice for the same crime? In this country it's illegal. I have already been tried and my guilty verdict is registered on Calvary hill. So, then how can you judge me? I am already a condemned man.
In reading your posts, your main line of defense seems to be "others did it why can't I ? " When you have been on a jury (if you have) is this line of defense a good one? I mean the crimes you are charged with are not in dispute, your justification for such is what's being considered. What if the Judge said, "just plead guilty son and I'll give you a full pardon and you can come over to my house and have some pie my Mrs. made"?
Under those circumstances, what could you possibly vote to as a juror if the accused continued to proclaim "not guilty because he did it too"? Would you view him as "depraved" in some way? Would you view him as "something just isn't quite right with that boy"?
At any rate, this is all peripheral to your declaration that "social conditioning" is where you personally go to for knowledge of good and bad.
How do you know it's a good source for information?
Can social conditioning be manipulated?
Has anyone ever manipulated social conditioning? If so, what was the outcome?
How do you know if the manipulators of social conditioning are good?
Where do the manipulators of social conditioning go to get their knowledge of god and bad?
How do you determine if that place is good?
hillay_step
Your questions about God are all answered in the great body of knowledge called theology.
But just a few questions for you, some of which I already asked you?
1. Can the finite judge the infinite? How do you know?
2. If so, can a three year old accurately judge his parents? Why not?
3. Why is that answer different for you than it is for God who is the author of LIFE and fountain of it.
4. If we judge ourselves how we judge others, what would the verdict be? How is God at fault if he grants that self judgement at times prior to natural death?
Perry,
Hillary_Step. You are your own best example of hypocrisy as illustrated by your own words above. Did you think that God was going to judge you by His standards?
You seem to be afflicted with a reading comprehension that ensures that you miss the point of every post made!
I was discussing your 'moral blindness' and ethical confusion. Read my post again carefully before you launch into preach-mode. I was highlighting the cognitive dissonance evidenced by your sneering at Christians (whom you refer to as religionists) who judge others, while you yourself judge others. I asked whether you were in fact a Christian, or a religionist. A prefectly reasonable question given your diachotomous posts on the subject.
I also note that you, once again, avoid facing the issues of the evil perpetrated by your God, both in action in the OT, and in intent in the NT.
Frankly Perry, your posts are indicative of a person in an intellectual maelstrom who does not seem to be able to hold a thought for long enough to construct a sensible platform for discussion from it.
When you deem fit to attend to both the issues that I raised without covering your screen with the spittle of zeal in outrage that I might question the ethics of a God who himself seems to to confuse 'evil' and 'good' more often than is healthy, then we can talk again.
HS
hillary-step,
I don't blame you for ignoring the obvious. It is our nature.
I beleive this thread has really run it's course. I believe it did a few pages back. I thank everyone for excellent posts!
Peace to everyone!
DD
how the Christian faith in particular may be dangerousHow is acknowledging that its wrong to hurt others, and that I have done so, dangerous?
Part of the answer was in my following words which you left out: "-- especially when it is applied to people who don't need it".
I was alluding to my previous suggestion (in the other thread) that religion, and Christianity in particular (please don't tell me it's not a religion, I know the mantra), works as a pharmakos, remedy/poison, potentially helpful and harmful, which becomes actually hazardous when sold and bought as a harmless panacea. It is neither harmless nor good for all imo.
Most brands of Christianity from Paul onward imply a dialectical (which could be call a "perverted," in non-derogatory psychological terms) approach to life; sinner / righteous, condemned / forgiven, dead / alive, flesh / spirit, etc. This may be very helpful to people who for many reasons cannot (at least at certain stages of their lives) approach existence from a more natural, straightforward, immediate, non-dialectical way. In fact it may be absolutely necessary to them, and then Christianity comes as a blessing. But this is potentially destructive to others who can face life without that (at least down to a certain point). It amounts to telling them, "you cannot simply walk straight, you have to limp because we do". Some will walk out in a shrug, others will just pretend to limp, still others will cripple themselves to the point that they really need to limp, too.
That's what onacruse called masochism in another thread; I have no problem with that. I have a problem with masochistic proselytism. Especially when children and young people are involved (I already referred to Kierkegaard's remark that Christianity could be destructive if taught and taken seriously at too early an age).
Btw, the sight of "repentant sinners" showing off their "total depravity" and being shocked that other people do not feel as "totally depraved" as they pretend to do is a bit farcical to me. By all means, mind your own total depravity! (Kierkegaard, elsewhere, approximately says, I shouldn't doubt anyone's salvation except mine).
Perry,
I can remember many great posts you have made, and threads you have started. Since I tend to remember people who post things that make an impression on me, so I notice when you post. It seemed you disappeared for a while, but now I have noticed you posting more frequently again. But I have to tell you, after reading this one, it seems something has gone wrong. If this is what Jesus has done to you it's not a good thing.
Please accept this as a sincere comment from a fellow bird lover.
What many religionists, especially of the Christian variety, seem unable to comprehend, is that atheists, agnostics and non-Christians do not view themselves as totally depraved and yet seem to be able to fulfil the Christian ethic to 'not judge others' with a far greater ease than do many Christians, including Perry
Hillary, Im curious, how is it that you come to a place in your life that enables you to "know" that all atheists, agnostics, and non-Christians are as un-biased and non-judgemental in their thinking as you claim they are?
