Has been fun - gotta go to bed! CYA
Do you have to get baptized to be saved?
by JH 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AuldSoul
stevenyc,
Self-identification as a Christian, yes. But not identification as a member of group X, religion Y, or any other group identifier. The identification with specific religious groups being attached to baptism removes from the act its original purpose, self-identification as a Christian. It becomes a matter of, " 4 One saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." (1 Corinthians 3:1-23)
Paul seemed to view dimly those who claimed to be Christians but who self-identified as anyone's but Christ's.
qcmbr: I'm still failing to see any real justfication for no baptism by immersion.
I am not speaking against baptism, qcmbr. I am baptized. I was baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and now having left I have been baptized as a Christian.
I am stating (rather pointedly) that there is no Scriptural justification for asserting that water baptism is necessary for salvation. The Spirit is life-giving, not water. 1 Peter 3:21 does not specify the nature of the baptism, whether by water or by spirit. But Peter witnessed firsthand that ones can be born again without having been baptized.
Unless you believe someone born again is not saved. Do you believe that, qcmbr? If so, why? Or unless you believe Cornelius and his house were not born again when they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. Do you believe that, qcmbr? If so, why?
The question was not put: Do you have to get baptized by water to be publicly self-identified as a Christian? If that was the question I would answer a resounding, "YES!" And I even answer the question presented with a yes, but the nature of the required baptism for salvation is with the Holy Ghost, not with water.
I invite you to Scripturally demonstrate contrariwise. I have invited you to do so many times in this thread. Can you?
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
Qcmbr
Aww knickers I stayed online to read and now I'm still posting grrrr:)
OK last one for me:
I think there are ample scriptures quoted here tonight that show the reception of the baptism of the Holy Ghost after a baptism of water and that both a baptism of water (John's baptism) and the baptism by fire (the Holy Ghost) are required.
If you are born again you aren't saved .. yet.
(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
As Peter said, repent, be baptised, receive the holy ghost..
then endure to the end. That's it. I suspect most of our supposed disagreement is semantically based but I could be wrong. -
LittleToe
I don't even want to pick through the mess of half-hearted theology that's been posted since I last looked at this thread
Jesus didn't baptise anyone: John 4:2 - I'm pretty sure you must know this verse, Q, as there are cross-references in the LDS KJV Bible, and its only in the very next chapter.
Also, just because someone claims to speak in tongues several times, why must this indicate that they are perpetually being born again? Did Paul get reborn every time he spoke in a new tongue, since he spoke in more than the others?
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stevenyc
AuldSoul, thanks for your reply. I have an other question for you if you will. Would all those baptized by John the Baptist have to be re-baptisted to be a Christian?
steve -
Qcmbr
LT - I didn't write the bible so you can't pick me up on its contradictions.
"Half hearted..." - Cheeky celt.:P
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LittleToe
Hehehe, thought that might tease ya. If I aint sleeping, you aint sleeping, pal
It was just a rumour amongst the Pharisees that he was baptising. His Disciples actually did it (the water stuff, anyhow).
John 1:33 has John the Baptist saying that Jesus would baptise with the Holy Spirit, though. Tag team?
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stevenyc
Romans 10:
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
No baptism mentioned for salvation here.
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AuldSoul
JH: Do you have to get baptized to be saved?
Since JH asked in the context of JW dogma it is obvious that he wasn't asking whether baptism by the Holy Ghost is required for salvation. He was asking whether baptism by water is required for salvation.
I have not seen a single Scripture presented that states that water baptism is required for salvation. Not even from qcmbr, who seems to believe (despite a lack of Biblical support) that water baptism is vital for salvation. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is required for salvation, but it may very well be that no one apart from the one who grants such baptism will know it occurred, or the reasons for the baptism.
qcmbr: I think there are ample scriptures quoted here tonight that show the reception of the baptism of the Holy Ghost after a baptism of water and that both a baptism of water (John's baptism) and the baptism by fire (the Holy Ghost) are required.
Not a single Scripture has been shown that demonstrates that the order of baptisms is required for salvation, but two chapters of Acts plainly demonstrate that the order of baptisms is completely unimportant for salvation. Not a single Scripture has been provided to demonstrate that baptism by water is required for salvation at all. Many instances of baptism have been cited but rarely is any distinction drawn between baptism with water and baptism with Holy Ghost.
In the case of Cornelius and his household such distinction is made crystal clear in chapters 10 and 11. In that account, the baptism with the Holy Ghost preceded baptism by water and this is stipulated in both chapters. This proves Biblically that the baptism of the Holy Ghost need not be preceded by the baptism of water, no matter how many times you assert otherwise. I have invited you to show Scriptures to demonstrate that baptism with water must precede baptism of the Holy Ghost. You haven't done so. Can you or can you not?
Would you agree that I have shown Scriptures that demonstrate that the baptism of the Holy Ghost can precede baptism with water? If so, then you cannot possibly show Scriptures that demonstrate the contrary. You can only show a Scripture where Peter stated something to some questioners. But ... Peter doesn't perform the baptism of the Holy Ghost, does he? If not, he can't really decide how or when that baptism can occur, can he? You can show a Scripture of Peter giving instructions according to how he thought things had to work. I can show a Scripture that proves, much to Peter's astonishment (and that of those with him), that the way he thought things had to work was not in fact how they had to work.
Therefore, Acts 10 and 11 falsify one part of your statement:
qcmbr: ... baptism of the Holy Ghost after a baptism of water ... are required.
Cornelius and his household received baptism of the Holy Ghost prior to baptism of water. You have not directly stated otherwise, and I believe you know I have accurately stated this according to the Bible.
qcmbr: ... that both a baptism of water (John's baptism) and the baptism by fire (the Holy Ghost) are required.
I asked you to demonstrate Scripturally that both are required for salvation. You did not. No one has done so on this thread.
Consider, please:
Matthew 3:11 — "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost. Keep that in mind as you consider John 3:22 and 4:1.
John 3:5 shows Jesus answering Nicodemus: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
John 4:10 — "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest ask of him, and he would have given thee living water."
What is "living water", given that Jesus told Nicodemus one must be born of water and of the Spirit? Whatever it is, it is this water that means life. (John 4:13, 14)
John 7:37-38 — "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Here is that pesky "living water" again. What is it. It would be cool if we could find an explanation in context.
John 7:39 — "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
In context, John parenthetically explains Jesus' words based on John's later understanding. The Spirit is living water.
Baptism with living water is baptism with the Holy Ghost. Scripturally speaking, that is. Baptism by physical water does not save. But that doesn't mean it is valueless or unimportant. Just that it is symbolic; it has no power to save. Again, I invite you to Biblically demonstrate otherwise.
Jesus didn't tell Nicodemus someone needed to be born three times. Just "again". Not (1) born of woman, then (2) born of water, then (3) born of Spirit. Just two births, the second birth is when one is born of living water, i.e. Spirit, i.e. Holy Ghost. For salvation.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul