Carbon Dating Question... sort of...

by LtCmd.Lore 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore

    OK, first of all I would like to point out that I don't fall for the lousy story of the canopy being over the earth before the flood, thus nullifying any carbon dating that dates back more that 5000 years. BUT the witnesses do, so therefore it may become neccasary to confront them on it.

    So here's the question. And it may seem like a stupid one to anyone who knows anything about the subject: IF there was a canopy of water covering the earth interfering with the radiation... wouldn't it REDUCE the amount of radiation reaching the surface, Therefore making the carbon atoms degradate at a SLOWER pace instead of faster? And that therefore would make things seem YOUNGER from carbon dating not older....Right?

    So if scientists believe that a dead life form in a pyramid is 9 thousand years old ... they would be wrong like the witnesses say, however it would be older than that, not younger.

    Does the average witness know so little about carbon dating? Or am I the one at error here? I'm just asking, in case we have any scientists here. But it seems so obvious.

    LtCmd.Lore

  • RAF
    RAF

    oy oy oy ... I don't know man ... Wow

    To believers their is only 2 possibilities (so they won't care)

    They just believe that God can do anything, but it wouldn't match with what the scientists are saying by now if you absolutely want to stick to the story word for word ... but you can also see it conceptually great flood = great cleaning (however it happens - totally or partially or even in an other way - the boat and everything could be only symbolism).

    Jw's already can't/are not allowed to have doubts about what the governing body is saying, they don't care about the science or even what the bible is really saying if it doesn't match the WTBS's teaching. So ...

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    The canopy would have no impact at all on the rate of decay. It could conceivably alter the amount of carbon 14 ions in the original speciman. With an unknown starting point, we would be unable to accurately determine the time lapse.

    Carbon dating works like this: all living things have a certain amount of carbon 14 ion, which is caused by eating organic things that have been bombarded by the suns rays. If we find a dead speciman, measure the carbon 14 that is left, then calculate backwards using the half life, we can determine how many years have passed since it died.

    However, a canopy thick enough to produce the flood would prevent light from reaching the earth, making life impossible. It would also produce air pressure high enough to flatten us like pancakes, and a host of other problems.

    Carbon dating can be calibrated by comparing it to other forms of dating (tree rings, ice core samples, etc), indicating that the scenario presented by creationists did not happen.

  • HAL9000
    HAL9000

    The following is some background on radiocarbon dating. Keep in mind that for most practical considerations, the rate of radioactive decay does not vary and cannot be increased or decreased.

    The radiocarbon clock is based on the known decay rate of the unstable isotope of carbon, namely Carbon-14, which is formed when cosmic rays interact with nitrogen in the atmosphere. The radiocarbon combines with oxygen to form a radioactive form of carbon dioxide. In today’s atmosphere one atom of Carbon-14 exists for every million million atoms of the most abundant isotope of the element - Carbon 12.

    Radiocarbon enters the food chain when it is absorbed by plants during photosynthesis. The Carbon-14 concentration of living tissue is fixed as it is formed. Thereafter the cells and bone carbonate in animals are renewed slowly by metabolic processes, while radioactive decay of the fixed Carbon-14 is continuously lowering the initial level. The net result is that the Carbon-14 content lags the atmosphere by up to a few decades. In the case of growing trees, cells formation happens only in a narrow zone under the bark, so the innermost wood may already be centuries old before the tree dies. In some, but not all, species there is a clear annual ring boundary. This forms the basis of dendrochronology and explains why wood is so widely employed for radiocarbon calibration studies. The situation is different (and more complex when dating is involved) when the life form exists in the ocean due to the slow exchange of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere to the ocean.

    When a living organism dies, the carbon exchange stops. Hence, by measuring the residual Carbon-14 concentration in organic samples, and provided they have not been contaminated by younger material (e.g. via bacterial action, soil organic acids) or by older material (e.g. geologic calcium carbonate), it is possible to calculate the time elapsed since the material was originally formed. It takes 5,730 years for half of the radiocarbon originally present to be lost by decay.

    The use of radiocarbon for dating began some 50 years ago and was based on the detection of the decay of the isotope. Nuclear particle counting techniques determine the Carbon-14 activity in a sample. In the last 20 years radiocarbon dating by accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) has become the preferred method. AMS counts the atoms of the different carbon isotopes directly, is far more sensitive than the decay counting method. It can be used on samples as small as 50 mg.

    Looking at LtCmdrLore's comment:

    IF there was a canopy of water covering the earth interfering with the radiation... wouldn't it REDUCE the amount of radiation reaching the surface, Therefore making the carbon atoms degradate at a SLOWER pace instead of faster? And that therefore would make things seem YOUNGER from carbon dating not older....Right?

    If a "canopy of water" covered the earth, yes, this would reduce the amount of radiation available to interact with the atmospheric nitrogen - so you would have less Carbon-14 formed and material dated from that time would appear to be older by virtue of the lower Carbon-14 content. BUT this effect would only last for as long as the "canopy of water" existed. This would mean that the available records from trees (dendrochronology) would show a period when there was a lower Carbon-14 abundance relative to the period before and after the "canopy" event. To my knowledge, such an event has not been reported. By the way, it is the tree rings that are measures, so a seasonal Carbon-14 picture can be built up.

    h9k

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore

    OK thanks guys, I knew the society couldn't be telling the whole truth... But now I'm curious, you mentioned the tree rings... I didn't know there even WERE any trees that old... I thought the oldest trees in existence are 3000 years or so.

    Wouldn't the very fact that a tree was alive during the flood, prove that it didn't happen?

    LtCmd.Lore

    edited to add: It just occured to me that there are pertrified trees out there, which could be pretty darned old.

  • HAL9000
    HAL9000

    The wood does not have to be from a live tree - Carbon dating works as well on preserved samples (even items like manufactured articles) or materials recoverd from bogs etc (peat bogs, that is). I understand that the age of some of the older samples can be correlated through various means - the power of these techniques relies in part on correlation of rrsults.

    h9k

  • SirNose586
    SirNose586

    Thanks for the review of carbon dating, HAL9000.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I ain't no serious scientist. I am as ignorant of the process as they come.

    Does the average witness know so little about carbon dating?

    But, I can answer the above question. YES.

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore

    OK, great, thanks HAL9000 I just learned more about carbon dating from you than in the 17 years I've been a witness, plus the 12 years I've been in school.

  • hooberus

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