JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex 290 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Mary

  There is no difference in what you stated above that would be deceptive and what they are actually saying. "their faith is of primary importance" is no different that "the first things in life are service and going to the KH". Apparently, you are the only one who can't see that

  Every now and then I encounter on JWD people who simply do not have a basic grasp of language and grammatical structure and who persist in misreading something.

  It's not Hebrew Eduardo...it's in English and you are either a fool or indeed, a lawyer if you can't see that what you classify as being deceptive, is no damn different than what the WTS is encouraging in their CCB.

  The CCB specifically qualifies your quoted portion above by stating that the situation of example parts at the assemblies or the platform and by using the qualifier "WHEN....the first things" is WHEN one WOULD emphasize that the first things in life are service and going to the KH, etc. (for JWs). That you fail to understand the difference is truly baffling.

  No, what's truly baffling is that you think people on here cannot see that you're merely playing with words in order to try and cover over what the WTS is proposing.

  As for the assertion about the hourly commitment, etc. the fact is that only a tiny fraction of Witnesses actually DO all that is encouraged that they do. The vast majority of Witnesses put in very little time than what is minimally required to get by without flak from the Elders or their parents if they are children. The fact that the average service hours are less than 10hrs a month demonstrates that half of all Witnesses don't even spend 10 hours a month in formal OR informal ministry.

  And I noticed that you completely ignored the fact that they still have to spend an extraordinary amount of time preparing for the meetings, attending the meetings, and even if they're below the congregation average, they still most likely go out once a week on Saturday mornings. So you certainly did not disprove the fact that Witnesses must spend 14 - 20 hours a week doing the bare minimum for this cult. Then again, I wouldn't expect a company man such as yourself to actually admit that this is a highly controlled cult that likes to keep it's members so busy, they haven't time for anything else.

  Once again the difference between the ideal state and the actual state of most Witnesses is lost upon you.

  No, apparently common sense is what's lost upon you Eduardo. Just like most Witnesses, you completely ignore facts about this religion that you have no defense for and instead, seize upon minor, stupid things hoping to distract from the problems of the religion. Like the apologetics who claim that there was really nothing wrong with the WTS having a library card for the UN, you play with words, deny they mean what they say and instead, twist them to appear make the Organization appear in the most favourable light.

  And in case anyone is wondering, Eduardo apparently is DF'd but has a "deep respect and love for both the Organization and for my fellow Jehovah's Witnesses" which would explain his defending them: http://www.jehovahs-witnesses.info/associate.html
• 

  Bryan

  Hey Eduardo,

  You've got quite a few chicks on that site. Do they know they're on the Internet?

  Oh yeah! They'll never know, because the Watchtower doesn't like you guys on the internet... right!

  http://oroborus21.com/album/jwnet/index.html

  Bryan
• 

  Bryan

  Ha... ha...

  I want to fill this album up with photos of Watchtower Babes, JW Hotties and Convention photos. Have a funny pic of someone's baptism or just nice photos of your convention? Are you really proud of that Pioneer School photo or Gilead Graduation? Make sure to caption them and send em all to me at: JWINFO(at)Oroborus21.com - Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

  http://www.jehovahs-witnesses.info/associate.html

  I thought the Watchtower didn't like you guys on the net. Do you think graduates from gilead would find you online?

  You crack me up guy! Thanks for giving them a reason to be online and find the truth about the "Truth"!

  Best,

  Bryan
• 

  winnie

  To Orborus 21,

  You seem intent on belittling some on this forum (even to the extent of name calling) who have pointed out that you may be wrong in your opinions. While I respect everyone's opinion towards the JW religion, and this may be a side issue, I would be interested to know how you would answer the following.

  You have mentioned that the booklet does not say to lie to the courts. This is true, but it does give the impression that you would be wise to 'mask' the truth from the courts so as not to damage the possibility of custody rights. Omission is the same as lying in the courts eyes, isn't it? The CCB has a couple of sections where the average JW would have their custody rights severely damaged if they were to answer truthfully.

  I quote from the booklet (a couple of examples):

  Blood.

  Explain that you are aware of many serious and possibly fatal dangers from blood...

  avoidance of blood in my opinion and the opinion of many in the medical community, is a sound, healthful course.

  (I have not read anywhere that medical personel have discouraged the use of blood. Nor have I seen mentioned from the medical personel's perspective that avoidance of it is a sound, healthful course.As for any possible dangers from blood, surely the possibility of prolonging a life far outweighs the small amount of risk associated from a blood transfusion?)

  Following these very broad statements, are questions one might encounter during court proceedings. Three in particular were of interest:

  Would you suffer any religious penalty if you or your child were given a blood transfusion?

  Would you be subject to alienation or disapproval from church members if you or your child were given a blood transfusion?

  Would you ever consent to your child be given a blood transfusion?

  In my experience, the first two answers would be a Yes, and the third a definite No.

  Religion.

  You want to emphasize the fact that you are a thinking, well balanced and reasonable individual...

  Questions one may be asked:

  Do you believe you have the only right religion?

  Do you believe all false religion is under the control of Satan?

  Will God destroy all false religion?

  As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, do you believe only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved?

  Answers to all the above questions would be a Yes.

  How would you feel if your child decided he/she did not want tobe one of Jehovah's Witnesses and chose to belong to another church?

  Your child would be disfellowshipped and you would be advised to cease all association with them.

  If your child, out of curiosity, decided that he wanted to attend the services of another church, would you allow him to? Would you accompany him?

  This would never happen! It would never be allowed.

  The above questions, if answered truthfully, would not present a reasonable individual, thus the need for 'bending' the truth.

  (A sideline, but I remember reading somewhere that when faced with questions from court proceedings, JW's are told that certain information which may be harmful to them may be omitted, with the reasoning that the courts do not need to know certain information. A bit presumptious, I thought.)
• 

  R6Laser

  Certainly, many Witnesses not only have normal (casual) acquaintances with non-Witness schoolmates, neighbors and workmates, but many of them have close non-Witness friends.

  Eduardo, this statement alone is a farce and you know it. I lived the "truth" for 40 yrs and I can tell you first hand that having a "close" friend with a "worldly" person is strongly discouraged in the Tower. How many times did I hear that scripture that says " friendship with the world is enmity with God". You are living in denial if you cant see the roses.

  The Claw.

  I can personally say that it is true that many witnesses do have normal and close non-jw friends. I had plenty of them, most of the kids in my hall had them. This is just coming from my point of view, but there were 2 classes of jw, those who followed everything they were told to the last word and those who just attended the meetings but had their own minds made up on how they were going to live their own lives.

  Most in my congregation when I was attending where not doing whatever they were told by old men who make up rules in the platform. In the other hand most here in this forum belong to the first group, those that followed whatever they were told. That's why there are so many extreme cases cited here because it is mostly made up of the ones who followed their advice, and got burned while doing it.

  You said it in your statement, "a relationship with a worldy person is strongly discouraged", but if you had common sense and wanted to have real world friends you could do it without thinking twice about it. I did it, and many jw's that I knew did it and we never got caught in any foxhunt or unfair persecution. When I left the WTS I was gone the next day, and not once did the elders came up and interrogate me or started anything out of the ordinary. I still talk to most old friends in the congregation, still talk to my mother and uncle who are still in. And while I do agree that some elders are extremely critical all it takes is some courage to stand up for yourself and take control of your own life. How easy that is I guess it depends on each individual and their situation.
• 

  restrangled

  R6laser said,

  I can personally say that it is true that many witnesses do have normal and close non-jw friends. I had plenty of them, most of the kids in my hall had them. This is just coming from my point of view, but there were 2 classes of jw, those who followed everything they were told to the last word and those who just attended the meetings but had their own minds made up on how they were going to live their own lives.

  It sounds like two different religions to me. I was a raised in a large city and knew many JW's from many different halls. We all had to follow the same rules, written and unwritten. Those rules were the religion. It wasn't just elders enforcing the law, it was parents, friends of parents, relatives, siblings and your own peers turning you in for any infraction, from any KH.

  There was absolutely no outside association allowed under any circumstances. No dances, school sports or organized sports of any kind. Life was school and the endless meetings, service and studying. After Highschool graduation, life was then assumed to be endless meetings, study and pioneering. 1975 was just around the corner.......it was that or die. Funny, to me it felt like we were already dead.

  r.
• 

  Quandry

  Show hobbies, crafts, social activity, sports, and especially plans for the future.

  "Be careful they don't all say that they are going to be pioneers. Plans can be trade, getting married and having children, journalism, and all kinds of other things. Maybe you can show an interest in art and the theatre.

  HERE NOW IS THE SESSION WITH LITTLE JOHNNY:

  Mom/Dad: "Now Johnny, a nice man from the court is going to ask you some questions. He might ask you what you want to be when you grow up. What will you say? A fireman? A policeman?"

  Johnny: "Oh, no, I'll tell them I want to be a pioneer and CO at Bethel, just like you always tell me I should have as a goal."

  Mom/Dad: "Well, never mind, Johnny. What if the nice man asks you what hobbies you have? Remember you told me you like baseball?"

  Johnny: "Yes, but you said I couldn't be on the team because I would have association with worldly kids and the practice might interfere with the meetings or service and that it is competitive and Jehovah wouldn't like that."

  Mom/Dad: "Now, look, Johnny...you need to try and cooperate here. Just tell them you like the theatre. Remember the school play you talked about last year?"

  Johnny: "Yes, I wanted to be in the play but you said I couldn't because of the association with...

  Mom/Dad: (Cutting Johnny off) "Now Johnny, why don't we just end this discussion and you go outside and play with Billy from next door. You always wanted to play with him."

  Johnny: "But you said his family was really worshipping Satan and would die at Armageddon because they are worldly and bad association spoils useful habits and the birds would.....

  Mom/Dad: "Johnny, you littlle &^%#!; get outside and play with that stupid kid and tell the ^%$#%^ lawyer in court how normal we are!!!!!
• 

  Oroborus21

  Restrangled,

  I think you probably touch upon the reality of the situation. There seems to be a big disparity between the JW culture pre-1980s and post-1980s in this area. Persons of your generation probably did have stronger social pressure to avoid non-Witness relationships. Persons of my generation and younger had much more flexibility and whether or not we had non-Witness friends depended more on our parents' views or individual circumstances then the continued messages from the Society.
• 

  restrangled

  Oroborus21 said:

  There seems to be a big disparity between the JW culture pre-1980s and post-1980s in this area. Persons of your generation probably did have stronger social pressure to avoid non-Witness relationships. Persons of my generation and younger had much more flexibility and whether or not we had non-Witness friends depended more on our parents' views or individual circumstances then the continued messages from the Society.

  I beg to differ,

  First, the rules have not changed one iota from when I was young.

  Second, I haven't heard of any "true blue" JW's getting smart enough to think for themselves, ie: the need for the little booklet we're all arguing about.

  Third, a present day example: An exceptionally stunning 18 year old girl with a figure to match at my mom's hall was extremely stifled. She was driven back and forth to school, with every minute of her life monitered for bad association, service hours, meeting attendance, etc. When she finally graduated high school she obtained a job in a "boiler room" for Sears where many other witnesses were working because they could work around meeting and service hours. She was still driven back and forth to work by her parents and expected to pioneer in between. With in 30 days she met a 35 year old Hispanic man who was balding with a nice paunch, had 3 kids and still lived at home with his mother. He bought her a cheap piece of jewlery and she was hooked. The witnesses promptly reported it, she was dragged before the elders. One day she didn't show up at work after being dropped off and low and behold ..... they were secretly married that day. IT WAS HER ONLY WAY OUT!

  She lived in her MIL"S converted garage taking care of his 3 kids and stopped attending meetings. She soon became pregnant. She was in a car accident and lost the baby.....her new husband sued and they wound up with enough funds to buy a big house and a new car.....In the mean time she is still taking care of all those kids and he still works in the boiler room.

  Things have not changed.

  I have question for you Oroborus21. If you were raised in such a progressive JW household and you were free to feel normal, get an advanced education, etc., then in all sincerety, I ask why are you here?

  R.
• 

  slimboyfat

  Eduardo talks a lot of sense and I for one appreciate him.

  Give me one of him to a thousand mindless bash-the-Witnesses-at-all-costs numbskulls any day.

  Slim